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Synthetic oil

27K views 83 replies 28 participants last post by  MSX UD ITA 
#1 ·
The grom has 1000 miles on her so I decided to put synthetic in. After about 50 miles with that I'm having trouble getting 2nd gear without it slipping in neutral. Which is very annoying if you've ever done it. Think the oil is messing with the clutch or something. Going back to the recommended oil when it comes in to see if it really was the synthetic or something else.
 
#5 ·
Rotella T6 is JASO MA rated which means it is safe for motorcycles and shouldn't cause the clutch to slip. All motorcycle oils should prevent clutch slipping too. I have used Rotella T6 in about 20 motorcycles now and never had a clutch slip. I like it cause it is CHEAP. A gallon at Walmart is $21 or less when on sale. The reason I prefer synthetic is because I do a lot of high-speed riding in hot weather and supposedly synthetic breaks down less at higher temps. I don't try to extend oil changes either. I just turned 1000 miles. Did the first oil/filter change at 200 miles after a hard break-in and went to synthetic. The oem oil was dark and dirty. Did another oil/filter change at 800 miles. If I ever had a clutch slip, I would change oil brands too.
 
#14 ·
Explain why people spend all kinda money on syn oil????
This is an air cooled horizontal 1970's motor with f/i
Do you put syn in you lawn mower?
Spend more money to create problems, i will never understand.
News flash..This isnt a race engine folks.
I do this for a living. i explain this to people everyday.
The concept behind syn oil is this
Less friction = less wear
However.... Clutches rely on friction to work!
In a 10,000 dollar race motor that is at wide open operation getting the piss pounded out of it constantley, yes.. It is cheaper to replace clutches than to rebuild "race" motors more often.
In an air cooled tractor motor like yours, thatll turn 50,000 miles on chinese shit oil, why would u run syn? So u havta replace clutches constantly for no reason ?
You wanna burn that extra money on something useful?
How bout a fuel additive like star tron to combat the ethenol and the effects??
Or a good battery tender ?
Na that makes to much sense..
Ill buy clutches and batteries twice a yr instead, and say what a piece of shit the bike is or blame the dealer somehow when the clutch slips or stator goes out, or the motor is carboned up from ethenol.
Number one cause of failure i see in motorsports everyday
SELF INFLICTED FIXING SHIT THAT ISNT BROKE, or thinking u can improve on the manufacturer million dollar r&d they put into the machine.
Do you run race gas too??
No, its more money, and your bike wont run right. So why the syn oil?
READ THE ACTUAL OWNERS MANUAL, IT ACTUALLY DOES PROVIDE THE INFO ON WHAT FLUIDS TO PUT IN UR BIKE.






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#17 ·
Best sound ADVICE given to the General Grom or motorcycle rider in the world.

Yep a lot of people think if they buy something it will improve their engine performance because it said it on the Box that the product came in. It is cheaper to use standard oil. It is cheaper to stay stock except for the Grom stock tires.

All other stuff added to the Grom is for looks and the effect of going fast.

Want to go fast buy a Hayabusa, ZX1400, R1, ZX10, etc

Want to have fun buy a Grom that will put a smile on your face and save you money at the gas pump.
 
#15 ·
At my 1000km service the guy used synthetic oil without my request and I never would have known thats what was causing my clutch slip... I took it for my 4000km service yesterday and made sure it was a honda trained mechanic... they put normal oil in and the clutch slip is gone... engine is running beautifully now... I was worried that it was my fault for thrashing the ass out of this tiny little engine but it appears to be a fairly robust little thing...

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#22 ·
So I don’t intend to start an internet brawl but I do think some of your comments/recommendations are off base, or flat out incorrect. People spend money on synthetic because all things equal in a given application synthetic is more uniform out of the bottom, will have a better friction coefficient that will last longer, run cooler, will resist shear and breakdown much longer (so will remain more effective at suspending and cleaning of dirt and deposits), and can operate at higher temps while doing this. These aren’t opinions, these are facts and why synthetic costs marginally more.

Any air cooled engine WILL benefit with the properly applied synthetic vs its conventional counterpart. Do I put it in my lawn mower? Yep, and my power washer and just about every small engine I own. My ‘air cooled’ mower has a max speed of 3mph maybe? All the cooling fins in the world won’t help much when you aren’t moving air over them (did I mention the stationary power washer?) ANY air cooled engine will benefit from the points I mentioned above, especially a hot running single cylinder in a dirty environment like a mower. Is it a race engine, heck no. Will it wear less and thus last much longer, absolutely. Is synthetic oil a genie in the bottle that will add 10 HP and 5 MPH to your groms top end? Definitely not - and I think that is the point you are trying to make. But it will help as opposed to hurt this engine when properly applied, that is fact - the bottom line is if that benefit is cost effective for you?

You are right, this motor will probably will run forever with 10W-sand in it, but it will last longer and wear less with better oil. Side note: I have a bottle of chinese $#%& oil that came with a cheap minibike like you mentioned. It’s 10W-40 is all I know, nothing else on the bottle but under 30 degrees it is a solid, I keep it on hand for the day I fix a motor for someone I don’t really like!

Now about that clutch –oil in the Grom does double duty lubricating and cleaning the engine AND the clutch. If you are asking your oil to do double duty why wouldn’t you go with something that will handle the workload better? Honestly though everyone here seems to be changing oil much more frequently than recommended so this hurts the argument for synthetic. Keep in mind though from your first mile after a change your engine and clutch are breaking down your oil (and without a conventional paper filter to clean it) – again, what is cost effective for you? You said ‘Clutches rely on friction to work’ and ‘spend more money to create problems’… First, synthetic will NOT create problems; it isn’t a genie in a bottle in that way either. The clutch more correctly relies on a specific range of friction to work, not the presence or absence of it. The oil you choose needs to allow the clutch to spin with as little friction as possible while disengaged yet have the right “fail” threshold to allow the clutch to engage without slip at a specific friction point. This is where your various JASO , SAE and API ratings come into play as well as your weights and additives. Page 110 in your manual (READ THE ACTUAL OWNERS MANUAL right?) will tell you exactly what level you need for each rating. Additionally it makes no mention of regular or synthetic and doesn’t recommend either – only that it meet the industry standard specs the bike requires. If you are having clutch slip issues with your oil, you are using the wrong stuff period, end of story. The incorrect conventional oil will perform just as bad. Synthetic oil will not ruin engines as you alluded to – and I hope you don’t explain it to folks that way every day, because you are wrong. It will also not ruin wet clutches either – what will harm them is the wrong oil, and if you do this for a living you should absolutely know that.

You are spot on about ethanol though, thanks to the political mandated BS driving the oil industry (a whole other rant) this garbage is in every single pump around me to the tune of 10% (probably more) It is an alcohol that attracts and absorbs moisture and wreaks havoc on your fuel systems and is hell on carbs especially if left standing. We can argue all day about oil but at least we get to pick our poison at the end of the day - but we are stuck with this garbage gas without choice. I personally use a combination of sta-bil ethanol treatment and occasional seafoam treatments to combat the damage this crap causes.

Please don’t take my word for any of the above – there are a lot of informative industry sites out there where you can do some reseach. Stay away from car and moto sites though!
And you are basing all this knowledge on.....? What? Some popular mechanics article? Look man, all i can tell u is, i dnt know why water is wet, it just is. I dont know why exactly clutches slip and have to be replaced due to syn oil, but they do, all the time. PERIOD.

I have been a gold level powersports tech for almost two decades. You can say whatever u want, all i see is whooped clutch due to syn everyday and all over this forum.

So instead of writing a book of why rainbows are good and why the sky is blue, maybe you should just read the results right in front of you.




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#23 · (Edited)
^what this guy said. (Kacz)

I switched over to Honda syn. in my Grom at 600 miles and have never once had the clutch slip. I have also ran syn. in both my nighthawk 250 and nighthawk 750 they have never had the clutch slip. In fact shifting improved with the switch over. i think why some Grom riders are have a hard time with clutch slipping is they may be new to the whole clutch operation or just new to motorcycling in general.

Also some people might be getting the syn. oil with moly. Which will cause the clutch to slip. Just a thought.
 
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#33 ·
I've been riding since I was 6... bought my first bike (kawasaki ltd 250) with pocket money when I was 13 the msx125 is my 7th motorbike... the smallest I ever rode was a 50cc the biggest a 1800cc... I regularly ride a fz600 (my 62yo mothers bike) a fjr1300 (my 64yo dad's) and a fz1 (1000cc, my other bike) I was at a loss to the clutch slip and just thought it was from me thrashing the msx125 ... they changed the oil... the problem vanished...

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#27 ·
Like I said – not trying to start a fight with you but I can tell you synthetic oil WILL NOT cause clutch failure if properly applied, to go on this board and post that is wrong. My knowledge is based on research, industry data and analytics, and statistics, which is what I do. I am not a mechanic, but I don’t need one to fix my bike either... Oh, also the Rotella T6 in my Honda bikes and ATVs that has been flawless (though it is a slightly different clutch application on a Grom than the quads) and the synthetic in lots of toys I or friends have had and ridden over the years with wet clutches and have 0 problems. I also subscribe to popular mechanics though, how did you guess?…


As a mechanic I respect your opinion – but do you think you see bikes where synthetic is used and the clutch is fine? Of course not, you see the ones with problems. In every one of these cases you can confirm the cause was synthetic oil? What indicates to you that a clutch is bad and the cause was synthetic oil? Particular wear or damage? Is there something you specifically look for or at? I suppose you sent oil samples out for each one? How do you know that a clutch is bad and the direct cause is synthetic oil? How many Honda bikes are on the road? My point is consider your perspective as well. As a mechanic you only see problems, and unless you are testing the oil you can’t know for sure 1) what oil was used and 2) to what degree it caused a failure. I also know I could wear out a clutch in a week regardless of what oil I run if I wanted – and if I can’t replace it myself, I am bringing it to you. Point here is clutches wear out and you replace them, as no one is bringing operable bikes in, so you see a lot of bad clutches, no way they are all because of synthetic oil, unless maybe that is specifically what your shop specializes in...


I emailed the GM at the lvl 5 Honda powersports dealer I got my Grom from and asked him very simply is synthetic ok for this bike or will it cause issues. He spoke to the head mechanic and this is his answer verbatim: “Last, synthetic oil is good for folks who don't change the oil frequently. It is a personal preference on the oil you want to use.“ cut and paste directly from his email response. Take it for what it is worth… Also I checked the manual again – can’t find a darn thing about Honda recommending to stay away from the evil synthetic oil…




I don’t recall talking about the sky and rainbows, but I do know the information right in front of me regarding synthetics and wet clutches shows me that you are 100% incorrect. Sorry if that makes you mad. But again, who am I… go do some research. Every oil manufacturer has a wealth of info on their site about what oil ratings mean, and what applications they are appropriate for. Specifically go learn what the JASO MA rating means, that would be a good place for you to start as that is probably the most important rating for oils used in engines with wet clutch applications like the GROM. There is a forum full of oil industry geeks out there as well – bobistheoilguy, another good place to get the correct information.

Anyway, I am not trying to change your mind, and you won't change mine, nor do I want nor do I want to waste any more of our time arguing about motor oil on the internet. Ride safe out there man… /salute





Like i said
Popular mechanics..
Syn oil +Big dude+Small bike=low hp=small clutch plates=small spring psi=clutch slippage

Im not talking about sport bikes, race bikes, competition models.
I have seen v twin cruiser in kawi starter bendix failure due to KAWI syn oil! With the same im an engineer attitude with a bunch of facts, mean while SEVERAL of the SAME models running the SAME oil, with the SAME problem, so no, i dont need to do nasa experiments to determine its the syn oil on the starter bendix that is nothing more than a miniture clutch plates causing the problem. Changed oil, cleaned the plates, all the problems went away with ALL the bikes.

Mini bikes that are not straight competition models with weak spring psi, small plates, and not many of them, and a full sized adult on them, with syn oil, WILL SLIP, add some extra hp, and forget it, for sure.

So while i agree with all ur bullshit knowledge about syn in THEORY, thats all it is, theory,its not the real world.

Interesting how Honda split the clutch/trans lubrication from the rest of the motor in all their 150r/250r/450r Crf competition race bikes. They use straight syn in the motor, and gear oil in the clutch.

In the race world, you replace a clutch every race, motors every couple. Yea use syn all day long
If you have a sport bike or something with a heavy clutch spring psi, big plates, large stack height, yea sure, use syn.

If you have a mini bike, and you want your clutch to slip, listen to Popular Mechanics guy. If you dont want slip, and you plan on adding hp to this MINI bike, with an ADULT rider, with a small weak clutch and spring, listen to the PROFESSIONAL that tried to tell u SIMPLY, stay away from syn oil. Oh.. And try to add clutch spring psi..
Spend more time with the wrench, less time with the
industry data anal-sys
Stats, and research bullshit theorys on the internet.






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#40 ·
So is that first part supposed to be a sentence or a formula? Anyway so now you are saying, if I understand correctly, that Honda Groms will have clutch issues with synthetic oil because you saw a couple large kawas with starter problems and assume they were running kawa synthetic oil? Because those starters are IN THEORY miniature clutches? Hey didn’t kawa recall those starters too right… maybe it was something else??? Either way this makes perfect sense now… your right, I do stand corrected sir. Who cares about real world industry standards and ratings and all this BS NASA theory black magic oil voodoo, or the sheer volume of bikes on the road running the correct JASO MA rated synthetics in all shapes and sizes of bikes and riders without issue…

Did I mention I talked to the guys who sell and service Hondas at a lvl 5 powerhouse dealer (I assume you work for kawa, or an independent) and they made no bones about running synthetic, nor did they give me a silly math formula/sentence to determine if I will have problems… because it flat out will not happen.

I ask again – what shows a professional mechanic of 20 years such as yourself the telltale signs of clutch failure due to synthetic oil? At this point, and with all your obvious experience, I picture you splitting a case, running your finger along the worn clutch plate, then licking said finger and exclaiming “Synthetic!” I wouldn’t let you work on my weedwacker.

Also, minibikes (like the ones in popular mechanics) use dry clutches or tourque converters, not wet. Those race bikes you were talking about use a whole different drivetrain (not sure if that’s the right term, but you can correct me) set up because get this – they are meant for racing, hence they aren’t even a wet clutch application. Which means they are irrelevant to the incorrect case you have been trying to make that synthetic ruins wet clutchs, which now apparently is only the case in small bikes with large adult riders.

Anyway, I forgot I said I was done - you are right and you win this battle of the internet forums. Congrats to you sir and as penance I am going to go drain my oil right now and put good old dyno oil back in, how could I have been so foolish!

PS to lighten the mood here: I hear NASA runs full synthetic in their shuttles, I also read this in popular mechanics. You should give them a call and let em know about those v twins you saw….

PPS I like the other “THE GROMINATOR” better… you shouldn’t have stolen his name, just kidding – but not really.
Dude u are a joke
I guess i imagine all the people complaining about clutch slip on here? Youll listen to the dealership guy that gives u the standard bland answer of not saying, u should or shouldnt, cuz he didnt wanna get into a novel explanation w some bmw engineer type weirdo that puts syn in his mower. Just so you know i work at a honda/suz/kawi/yamaha/ dealer, and i wouldnt work on ur weed wacker moron. Go touch up ur douche bag skills on ur computer. Cause u certainley have no buisness with a wrench, or challenging someone who does. Hate yuppie idiots that read shit and think they know, yea.. Till u hand them a tool, then they are worthless.

Bottom line, i was giving a correct BASIC answer of dnt use syn, being itll run the same, and for as many miles as u want with reg oil. No chance of gettin screwed. Were as goin into a novel of jaso rating, and moly or non. This brand, that brand. For what exactly?
How bout just run reg oil and be more concerned about the fuel, battery, and the other obvious things people neglect, instead of being all concerned about syn oil.
Sorry u took it as something else
Just tryin to keep the guys who ADMIT they dnt know shit, from possibly making a mistake by using the wrong oil.


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#32 · (Edited)
Base stock/Synthetic has nothing to do with the clutch slipping. Using an oil with improper formulation and additives is the problem. You guys do more harm changing your oil every 50 miles with regular flooding the crankcase with detergents and antiwear additives instead the letting the rings set.

I worked briefly at a bike dealership with guys that had done it for 20 years and couldn't diagnose a simple circuit. Fuel injected bikes came out and they nearly shit there pants.
















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