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Discussion Starter #1
Browsing some Dax stuff earlier and came across this

138cc 4valve putting down over 22hp around 12k, I know I'm green to these engines but damnit that's a lot of power for only 138cc



I know it isn't a Grom and I know it's a 4 valve but is this something we have to look forward to?? Kind of got me a little excited
 

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that is quite a bit of power out of that cc, and i would assume it would be pretty hard to DD that engine... i imagine it likes to be WOT and nowhere else. lol.

tjr does some fancy stuff with the NICE which is very very close to the grom

TJR-Motorsport Online Shop - NICE-Motoren, TJR-Tuning, Tuning

edit: tjr rates their 146 at 21hp with only a roller head, not 4valve, and the 175cc at 25.5hp with only a roller head
 

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Hmmm 10hp at 5500 rpm modified vs 10hp at 8000 rpm stock. Might actually be fairly streetable.
 

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Ive heard of tuners getting 26hp from a daytona 190. Your talking about quite a bit of money to get there, but heavily modified it may be possible. At that point it would be strictly for racing and probably not that reliable.
Daytona has a prototype supercharged 125 that puts out quite a bit.

On the grom I would quess 18hp is possible and would be attainable for the average guy with bolt on parts, but its about how much money your willing to throw at it.
 

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Browsing some Dax stuff earlier and came across this

138cc 4valve putting down over 22hp around 12k, I know I'm green to these engines but damnit that's a lot of power for only 138cc



I know it isn't a Grom and I know it's a 4 valve but is this something we have to look forward to?? Kind of got me a little excited
This is quality takegawa stuff, all billet and upwards of $5,000.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I figured the engine was a hefty coin, as far as drivability it would be like riding around on a 2t.. As long as you kept the revs up it would do fine, not so much for a daily commute

So realistically an average joe shooting for power, do you think a 180 would (safely) do 17-20hp depending on how exactly it's set up? Granted itd be sweet to hear that thing scream to 12k, a 180 at 9.5-10k will be nice on a daily and have plenty of tq to cruise at a lower rpm
 

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In the end, I will focus on suspension and let others build engines and see what happens. I am not that much of a hot rodder.
 

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them Chinese yx 140 engines are kicking out around 14 to 16bhp and cost peanuts although cheap means not that reliable but getting better on latest versions if looked after, Honda nice engines can be made upto 280cc on some of the drag scooters in Thailand etc but even the 127cc versions are quite pokey and can get them cheap from asiaproducts, even bigger cc's available for not much more on these reconditioned engines, TJR do some of the best tuning on these engines and there a thing to behold, even the smr200cc engine is based on a nice engine there bombproof! TJR-Motorsport Online Shop - Index
 

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Motors are air pumps, more air in more power, the grom it a two valve motor. We have lots of options but this bike wasn't ment to be a powerhouse of a motorcycle.
 

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The stock yx 140 realistically puts out around13 HP with a genuine mikuni vm 26 carb. I have 2. The latest versions are quite reliable as far as Chinese engines go.
There are a lot of crazy HP claims out there and some dyno readings vary drastically. For example, anything you see on ooracing subtract 2 or 3 HP. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

With a 180 and a proper tune and head I do believe 17-20 hp is attainable.
 

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I'm not going to be interested in messing up the reliability for a while. First time something goes wrong w that motor though, it's on!
 

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I'm not going to be interested in messing up the reliability for a while. First time something goes wrong w that motor though, it's on!
It's a Honda so basically you are saying you are never ever ever going to modify the motor. LOL
 

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Honestly, that's my hope! I'm not much of a speed demon, but if I've gotta get my hands dirty, it's not gonna be for nothing.
 

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HP is relative...... it relates directly to how much money you have. I have built quite a few engines and had some of the best builders build me engines. A very good friend got 19 real HP out of a 124cc XR50. It would out run 184cc China stuff. I raced against a guy with a 4 valve head KLX 143cc..... It is the quality of the head, valves, ports, crank, bearings, carb/fuel, piston design, compression, etc.... A Grom making 20 or more hp will have wicked compression and not be very reliable.... I will be shooting for 150cc with 14 or so HP. Anything more and your rideability and reliability go down.... Just my .02.
 

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i think a 180 with oil cooler will be just as reliable as a 150. the bottom end is STOUT, it all depends on the quality of the parts you put in it. cheap out on the cam, wait for it to be the weak point. people making 124cc versions of the puny 50cc block/cases on z50's and they are reliable. so starting out with a beefy bottom end with beefy gears we are fine. only common issues i see are related to 5spd trans swaps. awesome to have 5 gears, but it makes the gears so thin they are no longer reliable. 20+hp breaks them, then you have metal floating around ruinging everything else
 

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In the end, I will focus on suspension and let others build engines and see what happens. I am not that much of a hot rodder.
Horsepower has never been cheaper...it's everything else, including reliability and overall balance that takes time, skill... and oftentimes cubic dollars to get right. There are two basic versions of the Honda Nice motor. The early type, with Z50-pattern mounts can be taken to about 175cc. Chinese engines aren't in the same league, not even close. The big Daytonas make huge power & torque...they're also crude, disposable, race engines that rattle a bike to death, before they inevitably break...same as any low-end Chinese lump. Making the power is one thing, holding it together is another story, altogether.

The Grom engine is, essentially, the later Innova series engine...which includes the Nice 125. It's a beefier version of the older Wave 100/Nice 110, which is smooth-as-silk + stone-reliable. I've seen a few 125 Innovas retrofitted to Z50s and the results were very good...by my standards. Unfortunately, for the monkey crowd, major frame mods are needed and most won't be willing/able to make that leap for 65mph power...even when it's tough as an anvil.

The MSX125/Grom, being a clean-sheet design, intended for use with this newer engine is, free of that hurdle, right from the get-go. This engine has tons of tuning potential. I reckon 150-180cc will be among the easy, mild, tunes possible with this engine and that we'll likely see 30hp and incredible displacements from it eventually. 180cc should be more than enough displacement to get 85-90mph power, it just won't be cheap to do a 25hp tune well early-on in the game. I expect that will change in record time, as tuning development that has been going on, for years now, across Asia finds US distributors.

At the very least, I want to baseline any new machine before deciding what changes, if any, are really needed. I've only backed-away from the hotrod side of things over the past 5 years, or so. I like to actually get out and ride. Seems like the hot-rodded machinery is never finished and needs constant attention; that's getting old, for me. Since I rarely bother to fire-up a bike for less than a 50-mile ride, it's more about the trip than the destination. I'd rather spend the extra hour catching some breeze than dicking around with some "improvement" that isn't quite where it needs to be. There are very few places where bikes this small can be legally ridden over 55mph and just about anything is going to be faster. A 200cc Grom still won't be able to outrun a Honda Fit. Yeah, I know, 125cc is the legal minimum to hit the freeway..."no thanks". Wake turbulence from passing semis is something I'll gladly leave to others, like riders of fullsize bikes that weigh more than 500lbs. It's been remarked that many will go to incredible lengths for another 10mph; the truth in that statement becomes more apparent every year. I do realize that this view isn't shared by everyone and that's fine by me; at one time I would have considered my present view boring as I'm sure many will.

Still, what makes this new model appealing to me is the capability of taking on something like a tour along Route 66. That requires a lot, most of which is about as unglamorous as it gets...compared to bench-racing discussions of horsepower and displacement. Added power can be nice to have. Having the kind of reliability that allows you to confidently travel between "no" and "where" without fear of being stranded, plus the comfort and stability to make long-distance riding more pleasure than pain matters more...imho. A comfortable, well-balanced, bike makes every ride seem a little shorter than one would wish.
 

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Like I said, I'll focus on suspension while others sort out the different engine combinations.
 

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Horsepower has never been cheaper...it's everything else, including reliability and overall balance that takes time, skill... and oftentimes cubic dollars to get right. There are two basic versions of the Honda Nice motor. The early type, with Z50-pattern mounts can be taken to about 175cc. Chinese engines aren't in the same league, not even close. The big Daytonas make huge power & torque...they're also crude, disposable, race engines that rattle a bike to death, before they inevitably break...same as any low-end Chinese lump. Making the power is one thing, holding it together is another story, altogether.

The Grom engine is, essentially, the later Innova series engine...which includes the Nice 125. It's a beefier version of the older Wave 100/Nice 110, which is smooth-as-silk + stone-reliable. I've seen a few 125 Innovas retrofitted to Z50s and the results were very good...by my standards. Unfortunately, for the monkey crowd, major frame mods are needed and most won't be willing/able to make that leap for 65mph power...even when it's tough as an anvil.

The MSX125/Grom, being a clean-sheet design, intended for use with this newer engine is, free of that hurdle, right from the get-go. This engine has tons of tuning potential. I reckon 150-180cc will be among the easy, mild, tunes possible with this engine and that we'll likely see 30hp and incredible displacements from it eventually. 180cc should be more than enough displacement to get 85-90mph power, it just won't be cheap to do a 25hp tune well early-on in the game. I expect that will change in record time, as tuning development that has been going on, for years now, across Asia finds US distributors.

At the very least, I want to baseline any new machine before deciding what changes, if any, are really needed. I've only backed-away from the hotrod side of things over the past 5 years, or so. I like to actually get out and ride. Seems like the hot-rodded machinery is never finished and needs constant attention; that's getting old, for me. Since I rarely bother to fire-up a bike for less than a 50-mile ride, it's more about the trip than the destination. I'd rather spend the extra hour catching some breeze than dicking around with some "improvement" that isn't quite where it needs to be. There are very few places where bikes this small can be legally ridden over 55mph and just about anything is going to be faster. A 200cc Grom still won't be able to outrun a Honda Fit. Yeah, I know, 125cc is the legal minimum to hit the freeway..."no thanks". Wake turbulence from passing semis is something I'll gladly leave to others, like riders of fullsize bikes that weigh more than 500lbs. It's been remarked that many will go to incredible lengths for another 10mph; the truth in that statement becomes more apparent every year. I do realize that this view isn't shared by everyone and that's fine by me; at one time I would have considered my present view boring as I'm sure many will.

Still, what makes this new model appealing to me is the capability of taking on something like a tour along Route 66. That requires a lot, most of which is about as unglamorous as it gets...compared to bench-racing discussions of horsepower and displacement. Added power can be nice to have. Having the kind of reliability that allows you to confidently travel between "no" and "where" without fear of being stranded, plus the comfort and stability to make long-distance riding more pleasure than pain matters more...imho. A comfortable, well-balanced, bike makes every ride seem a little shorter than one would wish.
Good points all!
 

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I've only backed-away from the hotrod side of things over the past 5 years, or so. I like to actually get out and ride. Seems like the hot-rodded machinery is never finished and needs constant attention; that's getting old, for me. Since I rarely bother to fire-up a bike for less than a 50-mile ride, it's more about the trip than the destination. I'd rather spend the extra hour catching some breeze than dicking around with some "improvement" that isn't quite where it needs to be. There are very few places where bikes this small can be legally ridden over 55mph and just about anything is going to be faster. A 200cc Grom still won't be able to outrun a Honda Fit. Yeah, I know, 125cc is the legal minimum to hit the freeway..."no thanks". Wake turbulence from passing semis is something I'll gladly leave to others, like riders of fullsize bikes that weigh more than 500lbs. It's been remarked that many will go to incredible lengths for another 10mph; the truth in that statement becomes more apparent every year. I do realize that this view isn't shared by everyone and that's fine by me; at one time I would have considered my present view boring as I'm sure many will.
^^^ This..... I have the tools, shop, and knowledge to build a Superbike..... but after all those years of that stuff, I want to turn the key, it starts, and I ride it to anywhere I want and it justs needs gas..... I ultimately sold my KTM450SMR since it was kick start only and did not have any way to make it electric without big bucks.... I enjoy the ride, not the "R&D" now....
 
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