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Knowlegable Fuel Tuners please answer a question...

9.5K views 37 replies 16 participants last post by  m in sc  
#1 ·
Ok, I get it. If you add displacement or a host of other goodies, you need some form of fuel management.

Believe me, I am a complete newbie to fuel injection and its management. I am trying to learn the ins & outs of the management side. It just seems like there are too damn many ways to go, to correct what ever ails the fuel system. Whatever I read it seems like that item is the latest & greatest end all to fuel management! And yes I know better. But I get sucked in just the same. There has to be a better way out there, without breaking the bank.

Which leads me to my Q.

Why doesn't some aftermarket company offer a stand alone ECU (replaces the stock ECU) that has all the bells & whistles included instead of having to piggy back this & that behind a stock ECU? It just seems like one unit with many cables that lead to a gauge, the O2 sensor, TPI, and whatever else is need to complete a management system in one tidy package.

Or am I missing something here? (probably!)

My plans are for an intake & exhaust and a EFIE for now. For the next step, I do not want to purchase an expensive fuel controller and then have to purchase another one if I decide to do something else with the engine. I would not be beyond getting a good ECU-controller now and be set for IF & when i decide to go bigger.

Intelligent FI choices confuse me. Does it show? :furious:
 
#2 ·
this will help me out alot too. im so stumped on what direction i want to go with my grom in the tuning field... i know i wanna do a superstock125 but im lost on what tuner or what to do on that end of it.
 
#3 ·
I am leaning to a Superstock 125 also. This cats website is claiming 15-16 RWH out of a stock bore Grom. Of course the fuel controller is, wait for it, out of stock!

https://ren-mw.com/product/super-125-kit

This is 16hp kit is the best 125cc performance upgrade on the market.Kit Includes:

  • SUPER 125 HEAD
  • SUPER 125 PISTON
  • TBOLT CAMSHAFT
  • KOSO THROTTLE BODY KIT
  • SUPER CLUTCH SPRINGS
  • SUPER FUEL KIT




I have seen builds on here where 1500 clams get you 13 hp.

Picking a fuel controller gives me a headache.
 
#4 ·
Ren-MW, Gromz Father (rkfinch), and a lot of other people including myself are running aRacer standalone ECUs. It's expensive but easy to use and will grow with the bike if you decide to pursue more and more power.
 
#6 ·
Can you post a list of all the aRacer Standalone Ecu and other related parts that you are running? if you dont mind sharing your secrets lol..
 
#7 ·
Finbro ecu works well, not a piggy back. $150-200 I think now days new. Good for basic bolt ons and raises the rev limiter to 12.5k. It plugs in stock with two wire modifications. Not adjustable but gets your fuel in the desired range. Takes 50-100 miles of riding in the rpm ranges to smooth out. Some people have a hard time starting it in cold weather. Great for cheap. I used it for quite a while until I did too much and it was just too slow for me personally.

Aracer is stand alone ecu but costs 400-800-1200+ depending on the flavor and extras. I switched to this and it's fantastic. It does all kinds of cool stuff. I won't need to switch ecu's again.

Most everything else else is a piggy back system. They cost as much or close to the Aracer so why bother?
 
#9 ·
As always, I’ll try to stay fact based (the only advise of value), but here is my take. What’s the disadvantage of a piggyback, if it works perfectly? None really. Some of the less proven (in mainstream terms) may work, but I wouldn’t know, as we’ve never had a reason to use them, because.... The Bazzaz works PERCECTLY. What I would consider to be their only real competitor, the PCV, works arguably as well, so I’m confident either is a viable option. Our experience tells us, those who don’t think they work, failed to understand how to utilize them, as there’s not a single improvement I’d make if I could. Keep in mind any controller is only as good as the map you load into it. It’s not always a plug and play deal. You can take the best controller on earth, load a bad map, and spew garbage on the internet about how it didn’t work perfectly. That’s operator error. Some of the other brands may seem enticing, but the fact remains at the highest levels of racing, only two brands succeed, Bazzaz and Power Commander. The reason they succeed is because they work, and are adaptable to changes down the road. You should NEVER have to change a controller as your mods change, only the map in it. As the tuner question rolls on forever on the forums, we’ll lay this promise on the line.... We’ll provide buyers at worst, really good tunes, with the flexibility to adjust as you make changes to your bike. Wether you buy from us, or someone else, get a quality unit, regardless of how enticing the pricing or internet banter opinions make other options seem....
 
#10 ·
Moral of the story is - you want something good, you gotta spend some money. You're gonna be spending $300 on a quality ECU/Piggyback and another $300 bucks for the autotune feature.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I have the bazzaz setup on my koso 170 4v kit. I REALLY LIKE IT.. WV_Grom, I was in a similar spot trying to learn / decide as you when I first got started. When I first got the Bazzaz I was slightly in over my head and had to learn how to use it properly. After several you tube videos, and my first trip to the dyno I started to understand it. Additionally I purchased a small windows 10 tablet that supported the software so I could take trips and monitor exactly what was happening as I rode. I experimented with the bazzaz in stock form and after my BBK installed. I initially had 8.5hp with basic intake/exhaust mods, then was able to squeeze 9.0hp. It's certainly a learning process but just like MNNTHBX said, most negative reviews on these things are people that don't learn it properly.
 
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#13 ·
Paul, My stock dyno readings where not ideal, I was in the process of having my O2 sensor bung welded onto my exhaust, so for the stock "run" and initial learning of the bazzaz software I had to use my "stock" down pipe with aftermarket "can". We used the dyno's sensor in my tail pipe to record o2 values. It was more or less just a training session for me to mess around with the software so I would be ready to go by the time the BBK was installed.
 
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#14 ·
My non-bias opinion says: "Don't run piggybacks. I've done it. Run a standalone."

My bias opinion says: "Run an ARacer."

As funny as this may sound, the reason why I started my business is due to the lack of support on the tuning side from most vendors. Long story short, here I am and I only sell and use Aracer for a reason. If you want the best that's available for our platform, look no further. Don't beat yourself up on trying to decide what to use because I can tell you I have used most of them and so have my customers. ALL of them eventually go Aracer because they find out little quirks and limitations on piggyback models. Piggybacks work great on a stock 125 with basic upgrades but when you're going a custom build or even a BBK, throw that out of the window.

Get an RC MINI 5 from me and call it a day. If price concerns you, think more about headaches, blown engines, and downtime when you make your decision. On a Fuel Injected vehicle, TUNING and the ability to TUNE correct is the biggest factor.

"The body cannot live without the mind" - Morpheus
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thanks for the info. Back when I got my Grom the two big options were the PCV/WB2 and the Bazzaz. I finally settled on the PCV/WB2 combo for some reason that made sense at the time. Been a couple of years, so I don't remember what it was. I basically stopped following the "scene" for a few months and when I checked back in everyone was on the aRacer. Other than being a true ecm replacement, what makes it so much better than the PCV/WB2, in your experience? Honest question. When it eventually takes a dump I want good info to give my wife on why I'm dropping the extra cash on a different setup. Haha

Edit: Just found this thread - http://www.hondagrom.net/forums/7-grom-talk/31409-aracer-rc-mini-plus-2-vers-pcv-wb02.html
 
#15 ·
Brylo, I appreciate the fact you stated "biased opinion" and understand you're trying to sell product, but I wouldn't throw other product under the bus to do so. Certainly, there are some bad products out there, but to say all piggybacks are just isn't accurate. We can carry pretty much everything out there, but choose to only specialize in the Bazzaz because we know how well it works in ALL situations we've used it, as well as many of our friends in the highest levels of professional racing. I would assume when you said "think more about headaches, blown engines, and downtime when you make your decision", this wasn't based on your experience with Bazzaz, as none of that even remotely applies to the Bazzaz, which has proven for years to be easy to use, reliable, flexible, and totally effective. I'm guessing the Aracer and PCV will get the job done when used properly as well, but we KNOW AS FACT the Bazzaz does, thus the reason I feel compelled to stick up for it here....
 
#16 ·
with multiple standalone's available, people are quick to toss piggybakcs out the window. if you run a setup that calls for all of advance tuning options of a standalone, by all means, go that route. however for many, even those with a mild bbk setup, a piggy back is adequate. i personally run bazzaz on my girl's and my grom. we both have srd170 bbks and have zero issues targeting desired afr's throughout. as this bbk has a lower compression than other bbk's, we really have no need for timing adjustments and etc. if anything, the only thing i wish the bazzaz did have with the ability to raise the rpm limiter. however, as we are still running stock bottom ends, best to keep the stock limiter anyways.

we have a combined 15,000+ miles on the bazazz/srd170 setup and running strong. a properly tuned piggy back setup can be reliable.
 
#18 ·
Mechanical skills aside, as I have said before I am a newbie to FI. I have read 'till my head hurts trying to digest the many threads on the various controllers. I think unless you are on the extreme end of the displacement spectrum, there are several choices to be had to control your fueling needs. Is there a right or wrong? Good or bad? I dono, I had to make my decision based on what I have read & my gut feeling.

I think a stand alone ECU replacement is a good thing. Gut feeling here.

This is the main reason I ordered a aRacer mini5 & AF1. I believe with a bigger injector, I can make a motor happy, no matter it be stock, or a 210 and any displacement in between. I hope I am right. I am sure it is going to be a steep learning curve. Glad I will be tinkering with it on my lightly modded Grom, before I step up to bat with the big boys.

I do not know what size motor I will end up with. After I learn all about the Mini5, it will not matter, seems like it will do it all. At least I hope so!

I just hope I get a couple nifty RMW decals for my machine in my care package! (hint hint!)

Get your GRoM on Peeps.
 
#19 ·
For the aRacer mini and AF1 autotune - you should "save map" after each ride. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't save map, the autotune will start from a fresh slate when you go on your next ride.

Also, my buddy installed just the aRacer mini 2 w/o the AF1 and reported that after a few rides his "stage 1" with a Yoshi cam Grom was running absolutely great. The only thing he set was the "base map".
 
#22 ·
......Also, my buddy installed just the aRacer mini 2 w/o the AF1 and reported that after a few rides his "stage 1" with a Yoshi cam Grom was running absolutely great. The only thing he set was the "base map".
This post touches upon a major point of confusion for me regarding the add-on tuner components: There is the first *thing* one has to buy, and then there is the second *thing* that many people also buy to make the first thing work....?

FIRST THING: Dyno-Jet PCV, or Bazazz, or aRacer mini 5, etc: If one ONLY buys this item, what does it actually do? I read all sorts of vague generalizations about these devices making the bike run better in "open loop vs. closed loop" or certain percentages of throttle opening.....some say they are plug-n-play, others say a professional tune is really required. Where in the performance curve does JUST the "first thing" work / benefit the bike?

SECOND THING: The add-on module with O2 sensor......one MUST already have the first thing in order to utilize the second thing......which works in "closed loop vs. open loop" or WTF ever.......does anybody only ride with sub 70% throttle positions? So......one then gets the SECOND THING......which is supposed to read the O2 in the exhaust and "auto-tune" the bike......but this kinda seems like bullshit to me, because I keep reading about people downloading maps, tweaking parameters, having pro tunes, and still have issues. I guess the "second thing" is needed if one wants to try and gain power at +70% throttle positions? But what is funny to me is that the second thing -- the thing which is *supposed* to "auto-tune" the bike in the first place -- still needs to be....wait for it......tuned.

Is there really any point in buying just the FIRST THING if one is not also going to buy the SECOND THING? Why do the vendors not just put ALL the stuff in one integrated package instead of this "add-on" module approach? It would seem more honest to me.

I realize that I do not have a lot of knowledge regarding performance mods, but I feel like we are all drinking Kool-Aid supplied to us by the manufacturers of little tiny electronic modules which cost 1/4 of the price of the bike, just to gain that which was easily do-able with a simple screwdriver adjustment back in the days of carbs.
 
#24 ·
MNNTHBX ; just nailed this one. perfect description of tuners. When I initially got started with tuners; I was much like the rest, uneducated, confused with thing 1 vs thing 2, etc. After getting the bazzaz, loading bad maps, using the map builder and tweaking on the run, then the dyno brought my understanding to a hole new level. With tuners, I believe you can compare it to speaking different languages... Until you experience working with them, it will be like a foreign language, once learned it's basic and like MNNTHBX said, they all do basically the same thing.
 
#25 ·
IVE HAD THE PCV and the wb2 for a few years. cant say as ive had any problems, and it tunes just fine. theres no 'lag' that ive heard described. once the map is set where its good, and the adjustments are down to the 1-2 values,i just turn the auto tune basically off and its solid and predicatble.
To be honest, if a decent standalone would have been around when i bought my powercommander, i probably would have gone that way. the only thing i dont like is it doesn't come standard with a data logger.

to what i can speak to is the pcv. mines set up to map in each gear individually, and to me thats huge. rev limit is set to 11.5, and i have full timing control. the autotune under 80 percent is set to 13.0 afr, and its served me very, very well. since it creates its own fueling maps per gear, its very effective to how I ride. and different timing for different gears is also a huge thing for me. for example, i have the timing pretty advanced in the first 2 gears, and that has helped tremendously in low end take offs. If you dig in the software and spend time with it, its very powerful. theres even an 'accelerator' pump feature.

I do think a lot of the issues arise with lack of understanding of how it actually works. Ive been tuning carbs for close to 30 years, this is way easier. also, theres domestic factory support for us in the us. On my 1704v it handles it just fine with lots of room to spare fro capabilities.. even with large elevation changes (was in the mts last week) and it didnt miss a beat (but i did turn the auto tune back up for that trip).

at least we now have a few GOOD choices. 3 years ago this was def not the case.
 
#27 ·
The reason for all the other adjustment on ECM such as the Aracer mini2+ is that you might be running a HOT cam, better airbox unit, better exhaust system, better bigger piston/cylinder which would case more heat which you need the ECM to adjust the A/F mixture to cool down the piston top etc. It is a fine line when adding all these performance parts it is a learning curve.

As for Paultergeist what is your line of work/expertize and I'm wondering what value you can bring to the grom group as far as maybe we can use your service, computer expert/software developer/doctor/cabinet maker/etc????

Just asking, maybe we could use your service or expert advice in dealing with our projects/etc which is other than the grom build.
 
#30 ·
if your afr is correct and the timing isnt out of control, and the compression isnt ridiculous, temps arent an issue. on my 170 i run 13 under 80, 12.8 at 80 and i think 12.5 at 100% with it at 11.0 at 11.5k to act as a soft limiter.
 
#31 ·
due to simplicity and sales i bought pcv+wb2 kit
worth any cent... a really touching upgrade even on stock engine. forgetting about injection tuning on unlimited engine mods and other stuff.. launch control, speedo healer.
i reset nothing when i went bbk, just plugged the engine and fired up.. perfectly at first try=2nd starter's rotation, to be precise :big smile:
i programmed nothing. time spent on pc: 10 minutes total


which is supposed to read the O2 in the exhaust and "auto-tune" the bike...
exactly.. point is stock system does this bad and with crappy 02 measurements=fantastic out of stoic injection, all this is noticeable in certain gear range (top 3rd gear for first)
 
#33 ·
Paultergeist,

If you look at a PCV map for a Grom the TPS values jump directly from 60 to 80. My understanding has always been that 0-60% really means 0-79% (the 60 cell being 60-79% throttle) as at 80% you enter open loop and the PCV has free reign to take over from the WB2 in a PCV/WB2 combo. Does that make better sense to you?
 
#34 ·
Thanks for that clarification. I have not looked at a PCV map, as you suggest. I’ll look for one. But assuming that is indeed the case (i.e. 0-60 % really equates to 0-79%, to up to the point where the PCV kicks in), then your explanation indeed helps to connect the dots.

thanks again.
 
#35 ·
yup. basically, as i understand it, it interrupts the signal and fools the ecm to adjust to whatever afr the wb2 is set to under 80% throttle. monitoring on mine shows its effective. i would imagine it does it with a stored voltage offset table 0-79 tp as it doesn't reset itself every time. however, this isn't represented in the pcv tables. when you turn autotune off, this table in the wb2 and pcv are still being used. if you have a good set map, and elave autotune on at a value of lets say 2-5, it will make small conditional adjustments you wont even feel but keep things right.

i would imagine, a lot of people tend to leave it at 10 or 20 and if then it can swing around too much due to conditional anomalies. i usually set my max/min value to an odd number when i make a change so i can see if its maxxing out. .02
 
#36 ·
Coming from the Ruckus world, where 90-95%percent of the time your WOT and riding a Grom is really no different. So I wouldn't put too much time and energy on the 5% or 30% throttle tune. Most of the time if you measure your throttle percentage your always above 80%, if not 100%. Not unless your cruising at a certain speed, then yes your throttle percentage is going to be minimal. But is it really that crucial to extract 0.1Hp from a cruising speed??
in my opinion, I rather have a more spot on tune at 80-100% because lets face it, that's where the funs at. :) but everyone is different...

Now if its a world cup type of race, where even taking a laxative the night before the race can help you shave a second or two , then I'm all in for tuning every possible aspect of the power band.