Jonesn - My Dyno Information Thread (Lots of Graphs)

jonesn · Feb 1, 2017

My name is Cameron Jones and I'm out of Columbia Missouri. Last fall I acquired a Dynojet 200 from another dealer (2019 upgraded to 250i). I have since done quite a few different variations with the groms and because there isn't a ton of dyno information out there I'd like to share mine. Quick background involves 9 years as a parts guy for Kawasaki, KTM, Ducati, Polaris, Victory, and Slingshot. I had 6 years at Honda after that and now run my own Dyno shop next to our family Honda dealership. Started riding the Groms at the end of 2015 and have been hooked since.

I do all the dyno work in my free time for fun because I love to toy with this stuff so be a little patient with responses and updates. Each dyno run I let the bike idle up to operating temp, I then run it through the gears a few times varying the RPM in the low, mid, and top end. Helps the ECU learn as well as warm up the dyno. I then make 3 runs, sometimes 4 on occasion. Usually within those 3-4 runs at the end they are within .05 to .1hp

I apologize as I do not have a lot of data on AFR (yet), I do not have an afr sniffer for this dyno. The only way I can monitor AFR is via an O2 bung which I just recently installed on my personal grom. I also do not have tuning capabilities yet as this dyno does not have an eddy brake system. It's pretty pricey from dynojet to update the electronics and hardware to add both parts so that will be quite a ways down the road or a new dyno all together.

Keep in mind, dyno numbers vary per weather conditions, bike, fuel, altitude, tire pressure, location of the wheel on the drum, etc. This dyno has been very consistent, although it seems to read a touch high compared to others on lower hp applications such as the grom, it is still a great tool to show comparison.
Our dyno - Dynojet 200 on winpep 7, Altitude 860ft.

I'll edit this when I have more free time, but I want to at least get the ball rolling on this thread. I'm still learning how to export the graphs, so when I figure out how to add the weather details and mods I'll post those up as well.

This bike is our new shop bike that'll turn into a dyno queen so a lot of the data for it I'll leave on the main post. The rest I'll add in the second post.

2017 Honda Grom, 0 miles bone stock
2017 Honda Grom, 7 miles full Yoshimura RS2
2017 Honda Grom, 10 miles, Yoshimura RS2 with intake mod and airbox lid removed (I understand this is very lean, our race organization will only be allowing intake and exhaust modification with no fuel controller so I will be doing a lot of testing that will leave the bike very lean.) If it pops, it pops. I love rebuilding these

jonesn · Feb 1, 2017

Updated 2-17-2017
When I update these pages I'll put a date at the top of the post so it's easier to see when you check back.

Here's a couple in the meantime, I didn't get as much learning time with the finbro ECU on these as I did some others. So I'd imagine if they brought them back now I'd see a touch higher/cleaner. Typically after about 50-100 miles I see a consistent tune.

1. 2015 Honda Grom 3862miles 87oct (EJ)
Blue - intake mod and yoshi high mount exhaust
Red- added Finbro ECU and injector
Green- After finbro ecu I added the KOSO intake with thick foam. (Does some offroading)
Not shown, I'll have in another graph is the gain you get while removing the airbox. Typically a .5hp gain has been standard with the finbro ecu.

2. 2017 Honda Grom 215 miles 91oct (Josh)
Blue - KOSO Camshaft, DG v2 exhaust, stock everything else
Red - added Finbro ECU + pcx injector
Purple - Same as above + KOSO intake with thicker foam
Green - Same as above + intake lid removed

3. 2015 Honda Grom 1100 miles (Kyle) (assuming 91oct, typically what he runs but didn't ask)
This bike I did a lot of testing with the intake. All the variations below. If you want a comparison of anything listed below just ask, I'll send it over.
-DG V2 low mount exhaust
-" Exhaust + airbox lid removed
-" Exhaust + intake mod with lid on
-" Exhaust + intake mod with lid off
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thin) lid on
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thin) lid off
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thick) lid off
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thick) lid on + finbro ECU
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thick) lid off + finbro ECU
-" Exhaust + intake mod and koso filter (thick) lid on + finbro ECU + KOSO camshaft
Here is a before and after of when it came in with just the exhaust, and when it left with the newly added koso filter, finbro ecu, koso camshaft, pcx injector and intake mod.

4. 2015 Honda Grom (Marcus) 4252 miles, 91oct
This bike I originally installed a KOSO 170 big bore on, we decided against that route and wanted to try and get the most out of the stock bore with a high revving setup.
Red - DG V2 Exhaust, stock intake, KOSO camshaft (reason it's "wavy" was due to a chain with tight spots) realistically without the spikes was around 11.4hp. No fuel controller
Blue - Same + finbro ecu, PCX150 injector, and a fresh chain
Green - Same + finbro flat top piston with 50 miles
Dark blue - Same + finbro oversized valve head (26mm)

I had to pull the graph from my dyno computer, seems they get odd when I transfer the data on winpep.
Anyways,

Red and blue - same as above, flat top piston then adding the big valve head.
Green is adding the koso 34mm tb, 30.5mm intake manifold, koso bigger connecting tubes and koso intake with the lid on
maroon - is with the lid off
tq dip is mostly caused by the ECU, afr soon after he gets some miles on the bike and lets that ECU learn.

Old Goat Ninja · Feb 1, 2017

I'd be curious to see if those numbers improve with nothing more than mileage.

turpinator · Feb 1, 2017

Can you change the injector for your class? You could always ground the O2 wire, putting the ecu in fixed mapping, and run a larger injector to get more fuel.

What about a carb? Id call that part of the intake, so it'd be allowed.

The nice thing about a very restrictive class like that is that it keeps it cheap for everyone, but it can force you to buy really expensive things for very little advantage, ie CF rims. (or is intake and exhaust the /only/ things allowed?)

oo. another idea! use an efie with the TPS to make it think its at a higher throttle position than it actually is. That'd mean more fuel! But, it could def screw with timing curves and wouldn't gain you anything near WOT.

jonesn · Feb 1, 2017

Old Goat Ninja ask and you may receive!

Last fall I dyno'd my buddy Scott's grom. This is with the 1000 mile bone stock update he hit last week. While he was in I also gave it a before and after intake mod run.

jonesn · Feb 1, 2017

turpinator said:
Can you change the injector for your class? You could always ground the O2 wire, putting the ecu in fixed mapping, and run a larger injector to get more fuel.

What about a carb? Id call that part of the intake, so it'd be allowed.

The nice thing about a very restrictive class like that is that it keeps it cheap for everyone, but it can force you to buy really expensive things for very little advantage, ie CF rims. (or is intake and exhaust the /only/ things allowed?)

oo. another idea! use an efie with the TPS to make it think its at a higher throttle position than it actually is. That'd mean more fuel! But, it could def screw with timing curves and wouldn't gain you anything near WOT.

Unfortunately we cannot touch the motor/manifold/tb at all. We may flip the throttle body and add a pod is about as far as I can take it. I did consider the EFIE route, even considered finding a way to remove the stock limiter with a similar harness. In the end my buddy Adam convinced me if ones too fast it takes away the fun. This is the first year our organization has allowed grom racing so we don't want to ruin it right off the bat. MCRA for anyone interested! 3 grom races this year split up at hallett (Oklahoma) and gateway (STL MO)

turpinator · Feb 1, 2017

Well that's a bummer. Yeah, you could probably get some circuitry that feeds in a frequency and if that frequency is over a certain point, it sends out a constant one so the ECU thinks its still under 9200, but then youll run into fueling issues. Without a fuel controller (or pcv/whatever type piggyback), you could do it, its just a lot of work.

turpinator · Feb 1, 2017

moar charts!

It might be a good idea to post all of these somewhere on like photobucket account or google docs folder, a bit easier to scroll through rather than clicking on each to view.
And then too... you could post the raw data, so if anyone wants to chart it in different software/pull numbers from it, they can.

Old Goat Ninja · Feb 1, 2017

turpinator said:
moar charts!

It might be a good idea to post all of these somewhere on like photobucket account or google docs folder, a bit easier to scroll through rather than clicking on each to view.
And then too... you could post the raw data, so if anyone wants to chart it in different software/pull numbers from it, they can.

How are you browsing right now? I don't have to click anything to see them from my computer. I just checked from my phone too (using the app) and I don't have to click on there either.

jonesn · Feb 1, 2017

turpinator said:
moar charts!

It might be a good idea to post all of these somewhere on like photobucket account or google docs folder, a bit easier to scroll through rather than clicking on each to view.
And then too... you could post the raw data, so if anyone wants to chart it in different software/pull numbers from it, they can.

They're coming

I'm a bit dumb when it comes to picture attachments. I'll do some research on that when I get some free time. I'm actually considering attaching my DRF. files into this thread along with directions on how to install winpep7 and set the settings up correctly. Then you guys could mix and match all the graphs you'd like.

Squidbilly · Feb 1, 2017

Very informative, thanks for sharing

turpinator · Feb 1, 2017

Old Goat Ninja said:
How are you browsing right now? I don't have to click anything to see them from my computer. I just checked from my phone too (using the app) and I don't have to click on there either.

Well, i need to click on the thumbnail to bring up a full sized photo. and at work with forced crappy IE, it doesnt load when clicking, so i manually need to navigate to the picture's url.

farkas · Feb 2, 2017

I appreciate these dyno graphs, but without AFR readings they leave quite a bit on the table as far as how they run in comparison.

jonesn · Feb 2, 2017

farkas said:
I appreciate these dyno graphs, but without AFR readings they leave quite a bit on the table as far as how they run in comparison.

Ah, trust me I know.. It's a bummer I can't do it on all of them yet, just bikes with O2 bungs since I do have that sensor. Better than nothing, kinda lol. So Dynojet quoted me $4,000 to add the AFR sniffer, another $8,000 for the eddy brake system. With that kind of money I'd rather just buy either a new dyno or lightly used new model. They told me they're switching to a new platform this year so I would have to update everything over. 2017 I will have more AFR's because both our shops "test bike" as well as my personal bike will have O2 bungs. The info I have up until now does not have much for afr, maybe 1 or 2 runs.

The good news is I change parts on my grom every other week. Sometimes big bore, sometimes stock bore, toying with different intake setups, different exhaust setups. I recently became a finbro dealer so most of the testing on my personal grom will have their products and KOSO products. There will be more power commander related data on our shop bike, I have a pcv/wb2 sitting next to the dyno. May try bazzaz and hopefully a standalone as well.

nnamssorxela · Feb 2, 2017

Thank you very much for posting all of this. I'd be curious in the results (or your summary) of all the airbox mods. Did you see improvements by JUST changing out the filter to the Koso? How about making the intake hole bigger on the airbox and using the bigger tube on the airbox intake?

I think that the OEM filter panel is bigger than this bike needs, and the OEM airbox intake tube is the same size as the KOSO connecting tube for 34mm TBs, so I can't imagine any gains could be had, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Dirt Road Grom · Feb 2, 2017

Good to see another Missouri Grommer. Im out in Jeff City and it looks like I need to visit columbia's honda dealership.

jonesn · Feb 2, 2017

Dirt Road Grom said:
Good to see another Missouri Grommer. Im out in Jeff City and it looks like I need to visit columbia's honda dealership.

Come on by! We try and carry a bunch of grom stuff on hand and if you want a dyno I do it at a discount for people in our grom squad. Here's a FB link if you want to hop in, we have maybe 20 groms in columbia now little over 100 members. A handful of jeff city and sedalia guys as well. https://www.facebook.com/groups/gromsquad/

jonesn · Feb 2, 2017

nnamssorxela said:
Thank you very much for posting all of this. I'd be curious in the results (or your summary) of all the airbox mods. Did you see improvements by JUST changing out the filter to the Koso? How about making the intake hole bigger on the airbox and using the bigger tube on the airbox intake?

I think that the OEM filter panel is bigger than this bike needs, and the OEM airbox intake tube is the same size as the KOSO connecting tube for 34mm TBs, so I can't imagine any gains could be had, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I appreciate the good feedback! I'll be doing a big summary on the intake mod once I can get AFR's going. I'll also be doing a big "intake shootout" sort to say around the same time. Later on, same deal with exhaust, yoshi, two bros, dg, akrapovic, etc. Anything I have access to anyway.
Back to the intake, I'll post some graphs in a minute to show a few differences between the two setups though (without afr). To answer your question, the intakes made very close to the exact same hp with the lid off. The OEM filter had slightly more tq and hp until about 7400-7500rpm the koso (thin) slightly noses ahead from then on to redline. The thick filter however was a similar result, more power near redline but slightly less across the board, the KOSO thick did not overtake the OEM filter like the thin foam did at that 7400-7500rpm. With the lid on the two (thin) were basically identical. I'll also post a picture of the two intake tubes, OEM and KOSO, they're quite a bit different in size so I do think there's a lot of restriction in that hose. Which comes to another part I want to test, vacuum hose mod and radiator hose mod. Some on the stock airbox, some on a pod filter. Also tb flipped to see if there's a gain.
Here we go. So really the benefit of the koso is a reusable filter, density options, and it's able to bolt the filter down to the intake, the OEM seems to be a little flappy on the left side which can easily be fixed (with the lid off). Aside from that MAYBE a tit more top end but not really that noticeable.

nnamssorxela · Feb 2, 2017

Thanks a ton for that info. I took that to mean that the OEM filter is not really that restrictive since the panel is pretty darn big, and that removing the lid isn't really any better than the stock opening, which is what I suspected. I'll probably pick up a thick foam filter when it comes time just to improve filtration and make it serviceable.

To clarify, this is the airbox intake tube that would go on behind the left side fairing:

Rubber Intake - Koso North America

I was NOT referring to the bigger connecting tube, as IIRC we know that makes an improvement.

jonesn · Feb 2, 2017

nnamssorxela said:
Thanks a ton for that info. I took that to mean that the OEM filter is not really that restrictive since the panel is pretty darn big, and that removing the lid isn't really any better than the stock opening, which is what I suspected. I'll probably pick up a thick foam filter when it comes time just to improve filtration and make it serviceable.

To clarify, this is the airbox intake tube that would go on behind the left side fairing:

View attachment 50369

Rubber Intake - Koso North America

I was NOT referring to the bigger connecting tube, as IIRC we know that makes an improvement.

I understood ya on the first part

yeah stock filter isn't THAT restrictive really after the intake mod. Appreciate the pic, I was thinking the other tube which most people know of. THAT tube pictured I can't see making much difference, we just kind of threw it on there because we ordered everything else in the catalog for it. If I ever do another 170 4v I'll try it for shits and grins though.

Regarding your sentence I put in bold, I may have misunderstood. From the runs I've done so far I typically see a pretty consistent .5hp peak increase with the airbox lid/cover removed. In that graph above it was little less but the power it makes from peak to redline stays a bit higher with the lid removed

Jonesn - My Dyno Information Thread (Lots of Graphs)

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