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208$ but you need the conversion kit for 290$ to connect it to the motor. Then 498$ to come back to the 90's :-D that's a lot of money!
 

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I'm buying a Grom because its fuel injected and I won't have to screw with a carb. I'm selling my older honda because its got carbs. I think they're going backwards with this kit.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Here's the big question. Why did they R&D such a backward kit and put it on the market ?
 

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I hate carbs by all means.... but I'm willing to bet the grom would put out more power with a carb... plus ease of tuning comes to mind when you think its probably just like a Honda 50
 

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Here's the big question. Why did they R&D such a backward kit and put it on the market ?
answer: because we will buy any new gizmo for these things that come out! Im sure if somebody made a steam-power conversion kit for the Grom..... somebody would buy it. !!!

:applouse:
 

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Carbs are fine. They work well... and can be tuned with a few tools, and a box of jets.

BUT...

1) They won't make anymore or any less power than EFI when property tuned.

BUT...

2) you can have problemed areas with simple carbs like the one listed above. Why do you think some of the flat slide carbs can have, Pilot, pilot bleed, main high, main mid, main bleed, pump time, pump volume, pump bleed, emulsion, high-vac fuel cut, slide cut out, needle jet, and a jet needle??? The reason is... you have to look at A LOT of different situations.

So... the guys who say tuning a carb is easy... just means they never actually sat down and tried to completely tune a carb.

3) EFI is EASY. Watch the map on a computer, with a wide band hooked to it... make some adjustments... DONE. Or heck... get an auto tune system. (can't do that with a carb) Now... our EFI is simple. It would be much easier to tune with a MAP sensor in the system.


4) Yes, to buy a programmable ECU and the software, can be a little pricey. But, to buy that carb... the manifold... and the new CDI unit is MORE !!

and finally...

5) If you live in a state that has a safety inspection... it may not pass with that carb. One reason is... you are removing the Vapor system... and second, it's a single cable carb. (that's been a no-no since the 70's) DOT requires a second cable, to force the carb to close, if need be. (dumb since cars never required that)


Anyway... if the Grom had a carb... I would have still bought it. But, to go backwards is silly. (and over priced)
 

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So... the guys who say tuning a carb is easy... just means they never actually sat down and tried to completely tune a carb.
I dont agree witht hat.. its those that have and have had medicore 'good enough' results. it IS easy when you understand. all the circuits you listed are NOT on that carb. hell it doesnt even have a power jet in it.

Some carbs are very complicated, but some of the best racing carbs are the simplest to tune IF you know what you are looking at. Considering the probable age of the majority of this group, it is probably like black magic to tune one right to alot under the 40 year old demographic. No doubt. EFI is simpler as its very black and white, especially with a AFR meter and a laptop, its pretty much a no brainer. But carbs are not hard. the same argument is made in the other direction by carb only guys.



I agree though.. carbs are kind of sexy. like hilborne fuel injection.. but they are not superior in power delivery.


BTW ive never seen a bike fail inspection due to not having a return cable. regardless of age.
 

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I dont agree witht hat.. its those that have and have had medicore 'good enough' results................


Yes... I agree.

Back in the day... I had buddies that if it would idle... start ok... and not melt a piston when wide open... they were "Tuned". Even if it was popping in the mid RPM's... or would load up after sitting. (or fouling plugs after a day's worth of riding)


The real issues with tuning a carb is that to solve an issue in one spot, will effect total fuel, or in how it's delivered in another situation. So... you may have to make several adjustments to solve the original problem, and the new one you caused. (So... to lean out the mid... do you drop the needle, change the taper, or change the emulsion)

To solve the same issue with EFI... I can interpolate a section of the map, and it doesn't effect the fuel in any other region. So... unlike a carb... there's no guessing on what part to change, and no compensation to change total fuel.


So... I totally agree that most guys with carbs get to the "good enough" stage quick... EFI is still easier.


.....


BTW ive never seen a bike fail inspection due to not having a return cable. regardless of age.
All states are different. I lived in SoCal most of my life, and there wasn't any inspection for a motorcycle. (even though they are SMOG Nazi's) I'm now in PA... and they do a safety inspection on bikes, and that's something that could cause a bike to be failed. And... I do agree that most inspectors will let it slide... I just thought I would bring it up. Some states may be VERY strict.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Fuel pump recall ? At least with a carburetor gravity is my fuel pump, it has never failed.
 

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Yes... I agree.

Back in the day... I had buddies that if it would idle... start ok... and not melt a piston when wide open... they were "Tuned". Even if it was popping in the mid RPM's... or would load up after sitting. (or fouling plugs after a day's worth of riding)


The real issues with tuning a carb is that to solve an issue in one spot, will effect total fuel, or in how it's delivered in another situation. So... you may have to make several adjustments to solve the original problem, and the new one you caused. (So... to lean out the mid... do you drop the needle, change the taper, or change the emulsion)

To solve the same issue with EFI... I can interpolate a section of the map, and it doesn't effect the fuel in any other region. So... unlike a carb... there's no guessing on what part to change, and no compensation to change total fuel.


So... I totally agree that most guys with carbs get to the "good enough" stage quick... EFI is still easier.




All states are different. I lived in SoCal most of my life, and there wasn't any inspection for a motorcycle. (even though they are SMOG Nazi's) I'm now in PA... and they do a safety inspection on bikes, and that's something that could cause a bike to be failed. And... I do agree that most inspectors will let it slide... I just thought I would bring it up. Some states may be VERY strict.
I don't agree with your #2 assumption either. You keep going back to examples of people who don't tune a carb or don't know how. Just like tuning with FI, on a carb you tune parts of the carb that pertain to different ranges of throttle. So again, people who know what they are doing, do in fact tune a carb correctly.

That said, I sure as hell don't want to pay 400-500 for a carb setup on this little bike.
 

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Fuel pump recall ? At least with a carburetor gravity is my fuel pump, it has never failed.
No just the petcocks do.

Yep... and the float needle can stick. (just happened in my XR50. fuel all over the ground) But I will admit... to fix the issue is 10 minutes, a screw driver, and carb cleaner. (or new needle) It's much cheaper, but would have still left me stranded if I was out riding.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
I have owned more than thirty motorcycles since 1968, the Grom is my first with a fuel pump. I can't even remember running out of gas and my fuel gauge was the odometer. My first bike, 1968 Hodaka Ace 100, $435.00 new. Never had a fuel problem, until now, just sayin.
 

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