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Well people want something that works.
Coming from the perspective of a tuner with real-world experience in motorsport tuning, PV3 works, and quite well. The biggest competitor at the time is a promising standalone, which is (or rather, may be) a step-up from a standpoint of tuning capabilities, but may or may not be legal under different motorsport rules.

And they want to be able to use it without having to know how to use proprietary software and scripts.
'They' is subjective. No two people want the same thing. A professional tuner would likely jump at the ability to use scripting as it breaks away from hard-and-fast rules of what you can and cannot do with a tuning platform.

That other thing auto tunes to your desired AFR rather than being so manual like the PV3.
Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).

Aracer comes with an ECU purposed for performance and parameter specific for said reason so it is much faster and accurate at achieving those goals.

Dynojet and all this other shit just Flash/Piggyback a Stock ECU meant for reliability and environmental regulations.

Which sucks cause I own all this with decent knowledge and success of how to tune with these, but still thinking Aracer...
I would like to give Aracer a try just to give a good comparison from a tuners perspective, however Aracer decided to lock their software down, so you cannot try it out in 'offline' mode. If anyone wants to loan me a Super2 for comparison purposes given my background, I'd be happy to give you my unfiltered review of the side-by-side.

Right on the money. There's a lot of stuff in the OEM that ultimately makes it more difficult to achieve the desired result. A replacement ECU designed to run an engine without the need to support systems needed for compliance is pretty straight forward / not a lot of "stuff" to get in your way from a tuning perspective. If you chose to work with the stock ECU, you just need to find a competent tuner familiar with the best tools for the job........or be willing to dive in an learn.
While there is a lot of superfluous stuff in the OEM ECU, using a full standalone on a single-cylinder air-cooled bike is somewhat overkill, in my opinion. The biggest thing you'll get with a standalone (generally speaking here... NOT talking about Aracer) is motorsport-related features such as:

-Map switching
-Traction control
-Logging inputs
-Anti-wheelie
-Anti-lag (won't work on a single cylinder)
-Full-throttle shifting
-Knock sensing (most OEM stuff has this... the Grom does not)

How many of those are you gonna use on a single cylinder, air-cooled, NA Grom? BBK or not, most of those will be useless or just toys for street riding.

So, to sum it all up, here's my thoughts on the Aracer vs. PV3 (the only two worthwhile tuning solutions for the Grom, IMHO):

Buy the PV3 + wideband kit for a street bike or regulated race bike.

Spend more and buy the Aracer if you want to fine tune spark timing on a dyno to get the last 0.1 hp out of your bike (given the knock sensing capabilities). The other features are just added benefits. If you have a race bike, make sure you can run a standalone before buying the Aracer.

All that said, I do NOT know the quality of the Aracer knock sensing. This is an incredibly complex system requiring crank position sensing, knock window timing, frequency filtering, etc. and I have no clue how well it has been engineered.

Lastly, buy a forward-facing slide carb. with as short of a runner as you can get if you just want to brag about your peak horsepower number. Fuel injection is NOT going to add much in terms of performance on such a simple motor.
 

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Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).
That makes sense. The more free flowing your exhaust is the less accurate the AFR readings will be during deceleration and small throttle openings. Autotune sees a false lean reading and dumps a lot of fuel that's not needed. Wideband sensors can clog up with carbon over time and become less accurate. Some people remove them when they're not tuning.
 

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Aracer comes with an ECU purposed for performance and parameter specific for said reason so it is much faster and accurate at achieving those goals.

Dynojet and all this other shit just Flash/Piggyback a Stock ECU meant for reliability and environmental regulations.

Which sucks cause I own all this with decsent knowledge and success of how to tune with these, but still thinking Aracer...
aRacer is just so damn expensive. But it's getting tempting because almost nobody can answer questions about the PV3 and that includes the Dynojet staff. It is getting better, but Dynojet for sure released the PV3 well before their staff was equipped to support it.


Right on the money. There's a lot of stuff in the OEM that ultimately makes it more difficult to achieve the desired result. A replacement ECU designed to run an engine without the need to support systems needed for compliance is pretty straight forward / not a lot of "stuff" to get in your way from a tuning perspective. If you chose to work with the stock ECU, you just need to find a competent tuner familiar with the best tools for the job........or be willing to dive in an learn.
I'm willing and more than capable of learning. I've asked Dyonjet directly where to start learning their Power Core Software Suite and nobody has an answer. I can't even get responses from Dynojet customer service half of the time.

As far as generic FI tuning, do you have a book to recommend that would apply to the PV3 and the Power Core Software Suite?

Oh and most of the vendors that sell PV3 can't even support it. They seem to know nothing about it.


Coming from the perspective of a tuner with real-world experience in motorsport tuning, PV3 works, and quite well. The biggest competitor at the time is a promising standalone, which is (or rather, may be) a step-up from a standpoint of tuning capabilities, but may or may not be legal under different motorsport rules.

'They' is subjective. No two people want the same thing. A professional tuner would likely jump at the ability to use scripting as it breaks away from hard-and-fast rules of what you can and cannot do with a tuning platform.

Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).
I don't care about rules because I don't race.

You're arguing semantics.

I'm not a professional tuner. I'd be happy with autotune. If it didn't work would Dynojet offer it on their other products?
 

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aRacer is just so damn expensive. But it's getting tempting because almost nobody can answer questions about the PV3 and that includes the Dynojet staff. It is getting better, but Dynojet for sure released the PV3 well before their staff was equipped to support it.
What is it that you would like to know about PV3? It has a few bugs I've noticed, but as far as fuel and spark tuning of a single-cylinder air-cooled scooter motor, it does just fine. I'll simplify it even more:

If you want excellent closed-loop fueling, buy the PV3.
If you want knock control (of unknown quality), buy the aRacer.

The closed-loop fueling (if even offered) on motorsport-oriented systems will not offer the fuel economy you will see on OEM based units. It will usually offer the ability to target a non-stoich. AFR with a wideband, however.


I'm willing and more than capable of learning. I've asked Dyonjet directly where to start learning their Power Core Software Suite and nobody has an answer. I can't even get responses from Dynojet customer service half of the time.

As far as generic FI tuning, do you have a book to recommend that would apply to the PV3 and the Power Core Software Suite?

Oh and most of the vendors that sell PV3 can't even support it. They seem to know nothing about it.
The trouble with PV3 software is that some of the commonly-used buttons have been obscured by placing them in a very hard-to-notice location in the UI.
The only major bug I've noticed with PV3 on the Grom is that disabling decel. fuel cut doesn't really work reliably. Dynojet's firmware engineers have only cracked part of the OEM code needed to disable this feature. I have informed them of this.

Also, they (Dynojet) have been extremely good about getting back to me with any questions I have, though sometimes it takes a few days. They certainly tailor WHO they connect you with to your level of experience. I cited years of MoTeC, etc. tuning in my initial e-mail and they got me right to the engineers.


I don't care about rules because I don't race.

You're arguing semantics.

I'm not a professional tuner. I'd be happy with autotune. If it didn't work would Dynojet offer it on their other products?
I'm not arguing semantics. I'm not arguing, period... I'm just passing along my experience. Worth what you paid for it.

My point is not that auto-tune doesn't work... it's that auto-tune doesn't do much and is over-relied upon by end-users. It's a time-saver that can get you into a LOT of trouble if you don't understand what it is doing. A single outlier data-point using auto-tune (which is a glorified name for aftermarket short-term fuel trim) can blow a motor if the tuner doesn't catch it. Common or likely? No. Possible? Absolutely.

What I am doing is comparing the real-world benefits of aRacer vs. PV3 and I'm happy to compare them in-depth if you have specific questions (i.e. is x better than y for knock sensing, etc.). I mentioned above that I cannot use the aRacer software as the manufacturer has taken the old-school method of locking their tuning software down with a license. It's too bad, really, as the GUI can really make or break one's opinion of a tuning platform.

I am not shilling for either platform - they're both good though I can only comment on aRacer from a sky-level view at the moment.
 

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I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.

 

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It so funny to read how aracer owners say its better than the pv3 without having tried the other fuel controller and viceversa...
Its like kids arguing without facts and real comparisons...
Both are good...
In good hands both can do their job... In bad hands you can be the "piston melter" blaming everything but your hands...
By the way... This is a pv3 post... Who wants to talk or say wonders about the aracer can post it in his dedicated posts or create new ones...
Enviat des del meu LG-H870 usant Tapatalk
 

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It so funny to read how aracer owners say its better than the pv3 without having tried the other fuel controller and viceversa...
Its like kids arguing without facts and real comparisons...
Both are good...
In good hands both can do their job... In bad hands you can be the "piston melter" blaming everything but your hands...
By the way... This is a pv3 post... Who wants to talk or say wonders about the aracer can post it in his dedicated posts or create new ones...
Enviat des del meu LG-H870 usant Tapatalk
I'm not saying it's better since I used PCV-WB02 and now using Aracer I can tell you right of the bat the Aracer is EZ to setup, program and such, expensive yes, EZ to use yes, on the fly adjustment yes, smart device/iphone setup yes, and the list goes on.

Shit happens with what ever hardware you use, HEAT and friction is your enemy, including with that is Lack of oil, right petrol to use, correct hardware to use and correct ECU to program.

I've owned my groms since Jan 2014 and June 2014 and part of the original BBK kit builders so in life you test, sometimes you fail, and sometimes you find something that works for the grom.

Life goes on, just ride safe even in France or any of those European countries but ride it like you stole it.
 

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Ever tried pv3? Ever used power core software? C3 or anything related to pv3???
If not, how can you compare them?
If you are happy with aracer... Good for you.
But post it in aracer postd and leave this post for pv3 technical stuff!

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I'm not saying it's better since I used PCV-WB02 Life goes on, just ride safe even in France or any of those European countries but ride it like you stole it.
Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM
I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.
Like a veteran of the Game, keeping that post count up Lmao!... :popped out:
 

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Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM

This tuning platform is just his preference. He could achieve identical results on the PV3 (*potentially* better results even, given how in-depth the OEM Honda ECU can get if you really want to (end-of-injection timing, etc.)). GF has already heavily invested in learning aRacer as a platform - why would he relearn a new platform for identical results? This would be like going to someone that charges $900/hr. to tune MoTeC and asking them to write a GEMS tune. If you pay for the extra time they'll need to learn the platform, then *maybe* you'll convince them to write a rudimentary base map for you.

Until the PV3 was released, the aRacer was, hands-down, my top pick for tuning my Grom given my experience on other platforms. This was because there was a huge void between piggyback units and a full standalone until the PV3 came along.

The PCV and the PV3 are entirely different animals. You are comparing late-80's through early-90's tech to OBD reflash tuning that primarily began with GM vehicles in the late-90's.

1. The PCV is a piggyback limited by fooling the stock ECU and modifying I/O. This is seriously old tech., and on some similar piggyback modules you can even find trim-pots for low/mid/high RPM fueling adjustments. This was extremely common in the early-90's as it was an easy transition for people coming from carb. jetting.

2. The PV3 is an OEM reflash limited by the capabilities and I/O count of the stock ECU. This has the ability to be reverse-engineered into a full motorsport quality reflash by hacking the firmware, but I can tell you right now that, given the development time required, this will likely never, ever happen. It has the benefit of taking the EXTREMELY powerful OEM ECU (required to be, for emissions, economy, etc.) and repurposing it for your performance needs. The quality of the OEM ECU is almost ALL cases is tough to beat, even compared to standalone solutions.

3. The aRacer is a tiered approach to a standalone ECU that targets hobbyist to full motorsport use. It adds motorsport features, better logging capabilities, and a more 'open' tuning platform. As discussed prior, how many of the motorsport features are you planning to use? The ability to tune via a cell phone is a gimmick to a tuner - dyno or not, a cheap laptop is the way to go as you need to have the ability to review the data logs effectively.

Someone asked for some reading material:

How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems (Motorbooks Workshop) by Hartman

Buy it and read it twice. Consider it babby's first intro to tuning. Whenever they reference the GM-reflash style tuning, consider that equivalent to the PV3.
 

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I have full DHM set up, he is familiar with Pv3 and of course his own Flashing capability.

Ive asked David why doesnt he offer a tune for his setups flashed to stock Ecu, he said that very thing stock Ecu is not fast enough and limited to keep up with these type of mod setups,,, He himself prefers Aracer

No un-intended effects from Ecu for fueling or timing but its also not perfect, I honestly feel like my setup has more to give than the ECU will allow, unless I bite the bullet and take to dyno...
DHM does offer flashed ECUs for other setups though...


What is it that you would like to know about PV3? It has a few bugs I've noticed, but as far as fuel and spark tuning of a single-cylinder air-cooled scooter motor, it does just fine. I'll simplify it even more:

If you want excellent closed-loop fueling, buy the PV3.
If you want knock control (of unknown quality), buy the aRacer.

The closed-loop fueling (if even offered) on motorsport-oriented systems will not offer the fuel economy you will see on OEM based units. It will usually offer the ability to target a non-stoich. AFR with a wideband, however.

The trouble with PV3 software is that some of the commonly-used buttons have been obscured by placing them in a very hard-to-notice location in the UI.
The only major bug I've noticed with PV3 on the Grom is that disabling decel. fuel cut doesn't really work reliably. Dynojet's firmware engineers have only cracked part of the OEM code needed to disable this feature. I have informed them of this.

Also, they (Dynojet) have been extremely good about getting back to me with any questions I have, though sometimes it takes a few days. They certainly tailor WHO they connect you with to your level of experience. I cited years of MoTeC, etc. tuning in my initial e-mail and they got me right to the engineers.

I'm not arguing semantics. I'm not arguing, period... I'm just passing along my experience. Worth what you paid for it.

My point is not that auto-tune doesn't work... it's that auto-tune doesn't do much and is over-relied upon by end-users. It's a time-saver that can get you into a LOT of trouble if you don't understand what it is doing. A single outlier data-point using auto-tune (which is a glorified name for aftermarket short-term fuel trim) can blow a motor if the tuner doesn't catch it. Common or likely? No. Possible? Absolutely.

What I am doing is comparing the real-world benefits of aRacer vs. PV3 and I'm happy to compare them in-depth if you have specific questions (i.e. is x better than y for knock sensing, etc.). I mentioned above that I cannot use the aRacer software as the manufacturer has taken the old-school method of locking their tuning software down with a license. It's too bad, really, as the GUI can really make or break one's opinion of a tuning platform.

I am not shilling for either platform - they're both good though I can only comment on aRacer from a sky-level view at the moment.
What I want is a manual for the software. I haven't even seen that much at this point. Do I expect the software manual to make me an expert tuner? Nope. I'm not even sure I want it to be able to teach me the basics. But it should be able to teach me about the software.


I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.
GromFatherZ? You mean the guy with the over inflated ego that thinks his shit doesn't stink? Everything he does is surrounded by drama and most of it seems to be of his own doing. He claims to be the king of everything, but when he gets called out to race he gets silent from what I've seen on Facebook.

Why would you come on this PV3 thread and brag about aRacer? The aRacer fanbois are as bad as Harley riders. You only know aRacer/Harley and you think that's the only real ECU/motorcycle. It's lame and for that reason alone I don't want to be associated with gayRacer. The backfire mod is just the cherry on top of that rainbow cake. Spare us the BS in this thread. There are aRacer threads if you guys want to hold hands and have a powwow.
 

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Full PV3 setup with ecu and wideband for sale :)
 

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I'm Matt W. in engineering at Dynojet (NOT the Matt in tech support). I did all of the work on the definition for the Grom. If anyone needs advanced guidance on tuning, OEM strategy questions or has feature requests tag me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
 

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If the knock timing window and frequency filter is able to be tuned within the aRacer, you can literally attach the knock sensor into any threaded bung of the correct size and the stock motor has more than a few available.

If the knock settings aren't adjustable (even high-end motorsport systems sometimes require trace severing/soldering on the PCB), it's a crap-shoot if the knock sensor will even work on your bike.

To put this in perspective, when you take a stock car, put a different exhaust, pistons, valve-train, or even strip the body shell and cage the thing, knock settings WILL change due to the change in harmonics. On a vibration heavy platform like, say, any motorcycle, this is even more important.

I'm really getting into the weeds here, but selecting knock frequency is a very involved process - you generally induce knock on the dyno via advanced timing in overrun, then log the raw audio input. You then analyze the audio with a spectrum analyzer such as Goldwave, and select the knock frequency harmonic that has the least background noise. The knock window is the period in thecombustion cycle during which knock is likelyto occur, normally between 10 and 50 degreesafter TDC. A quality knock sensor module will allow you to tune this window to ignore all audio input outside of knock-likely time windows. Both of these require relatively high-speed electronics and quality filtering/amplification. Good knock modules are often fairly high-priced, in turn.

I'm Matt W. in engineering at Dynojet (NOT the Matt in tech support). I did all of the work on the definition for the Grom. If anyone needs advanced guidance on tuning, OEM strategy questions or has feature requests tag me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
Hey Matt, this is Steve H. - we've talked via e-mail before. Just wondering if you'd had any development time relating to my reported issue that the decel fuel cut master switch is unreliable? When disabled, it sometimes fuels on overrun, but more often, it just functions as normal with the cut. I submitted a few logs and my tune file for review a while back.
 

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Hey Matt, this is Steve H. - we've talked via e-mail before. Just wondering if you'd had any development time relating to my reported issue that the decel fuel cut master switch is unreliable? When disabled, it sometimes fuels on overrun, but more often, it just functions as normal with the cut. I submitted a few logs and my tune file for review a while back.
Steve,

What year is your bike? I don't recall speaking with you, likely it is the other Matt.

-Matt
 
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