[Dariusz]

Hi people, its me again

Now I'm thinking to make my smile biggest with my Monkey, and sounds as the best way is a BBK. I can find a lot info for Groms, but Monkey is similar but not the same (in example the grom maps don't work in the monkey, very bad as exist lots of maps available for Groms). Now my primary decision are between a Koso 170 4V or the Kitaco Neo 181 (any other option is very welcome).

I'm a 51 years old street hooligan but not a track person in all of my bikes, so the idea is have fun on the street. I don't like be to much radical, maybe a 15-17 Hp goal is perfect, and a big smile on the streets. I like that any solution be as most close to OEM as possible (that looks like factory), aka so no one without a expert eye can say that something is changed (thanks God most kits can be obtain in raw silver and not only in black, but if is black I can remove the paint :wink, so a oil cooler or ram air is discarded. The additional goal after install (the reliability is the first one), is that everything original is working the same way as come from factory (speedometer, starter, smooth run, etc)

The change needs to be very reliable. the temperature needs to be controlled, I don't like to need check oil or delicate parts every day after come home, or be scared about temperature every time I use the bike, or after 3000 miles needs to redo the engine (I don't have the time or the spare money for that), I like to have plenty of power in the mid range as I use the bikes most in downhills/uphills roads and only a 20% in a highway or flat areas, so nothing extreme, but a big smile, remember the big smile...

I have in my hands a Yoshi RS-3 full exhaust, the Takegawa filter element, and a DJ Power Vision 3 (maybe I need to add a WBX Single Channel to the PV for a small time to finish the correct map and a temp gauge, but the idea is remove after the maps are done).

So people, any help is very welcome, 2 points to take care are: 1. I don't like to break the bank and 2. I don't have access to a Dyno here in my country.

Any help and opinions or experience is very very welcome, the idea is to purchase all that is needed at same time to accomplish my goals (remember the big :big smile

An additional questions: a Oil Catch Tank is needed? I read in some places that is, other no, that is good to down the temperature, etc

Thanks in advance,

Dariusz

 

[solidjohnny]

There are three 181-186cc 2V big valve head Groms in my circle of buddies. One is a Neo....all three of us are satisfied with the power, but wish we went with a 4valve kit. The Neo head runs much much cooler than the 2 other Finbro heads. My advice is go with the KOSO 170 4V kit.

The only good thing is all our bikes are pretty even in power, so its still fun.

 

[Djezspin]

I've ran both NEO and now the 4v Koso head with Drowsports 181 piston.

The NEO was great and really does cover everything you are asking for. Low end torque, cruised at over 80mph, and was overall a very strong motor. It really is a reliable kit. I had an oil cooler on it and even on long extended highway runs my oil temps stayed below 190f. Hell it rarely even got that hot. I ran a zoom loop exhaust for a bit but once I changed over to a Hindle it really opened up. The valves needed to be checked and adjusted for the first 300 miles, after that I never needed to adjust them again, just checked periodically. Best gearing I found for the NEO was 15/32.

I struggled with the 2v/4v bug from the time I got my Grom and even after running the NEO I wanted more. After over 2000 miles with the NEO I decided to go 4v. The Grom is a different animal with 4v. And I'm glad I have an oil cooler as the temps don't hesitate to get to 200f and have seen 220f so far while I was playing with the tune. I will say though, riding with the NEO kit I never thought about the engine, riding with the 4v, well my mind is always a little on edge. 2 completely different engines.

As for the smiles...You'll have them with either kit you go with.

Make sure research what each kit comes with. Neo comes with a crank, injector and a few other items that Koso does not supply with their kit. You'll also need to get all the supporting internal mods as well for both kits. Also, I think I saw NEO kits being sold in silver at Webike Japan.

 

[CiscoSanJose]

If you port your heads on any grom engine build and port match your intake and exhaust I/D and have the right throttle body,inlet tube and F/I and ECU with the proper mapping you will be riding all day smiling.

Control your crank case pressure-oil catch can setup and you will reduce heat, combined with a 5 row external oil cooler and proper oil changes and you should be good to go.

Yes big difference between a 2v vers a 4v head.

If you have a old tired engine with 7-10K WOT miles on the engine do yourself a favor and replace all the transmission bearings, they are cheap and will make your transmission happy again. Would I go 5 speed yes. I have Zero issues with my Takegawa 5 speed and I even did not have to buy a speed healer or special adaptor for my speedo everything worked plug and play.

Just monitor your temps on your head, cylinder and oil and you would be ok. I found on my Takegawa 181-4v build the average temps on the head are between 190-220F, the cylinder between 190-240F, and oil between 160-210F going between 35mph to 55mph, anything over that and you are seeing 240F on the cylinder, 220F on the head and 220F on the oil and rise as you go up in mph like say up to 80mph for long distance.

 

[Dariusz]

There are three 181-186cc 2V big valve head Groms in my circle of buddies. One is a Neo....all three of us are satisfied with the power, but wish we went with a 4valve kit. The Neo head runs much much cooler than the 2 other Finbro heads. My advice is go with the KOSO 170 4V kit.

Hi, thank for your comments, but not sure if I understand well, You say that "all three of us are satisfied with the power, but wish we went with a 4valve kit" why if the power is nice and reliable, and more if you say that the Neo runs cool? And after that you say to go with the Koso 170 4V, can you elaborate a little, this intrigue myself

Thanks in advance

 

[Dariusz]

I've ran both NEO and now the 4v Koso head with Drowsports 181 piston.

The NEO was great and really does cover everything you are asking for. Low end torque, cruised at over 80mph, and was overall a very strong motor. It really is a reliable kit. I had an oil cooler on it and even on long extended highway runs my oil temps stayed below 190f. Hell it rarely even got that hot. I ran a zoom loop exhaust for a bit but once I changed over to a Hindle it really opened up. The valves needed to be checked and adjusted for the first 300 miles, after that I never needed to adjust them again, just checked periodically. Best gearing I found for the NEO was 15/32.

I struggled with the 2v/4v bug from the time I got my Grom and even after running the NEO I wanted more. After over 2000 miles with the NEO I decided to go 4v. The Grom is a different animal with 4v. And I'm glad I have an oil cooler as the temps don't hesitate to get to 200f and have seen 220f so far while I was playing with the tune. I will say though, riding with the NEO kit I never thought about the engine, riding with the 4v, well my mind is always a little on edge. 2 completely different engines.

As for the smiles...You'll have them with either kit you go with.

Make sure research what each kit comes with. Neo comes with a crank, injector and a few other items that Koso does not supply with their kit. You'll also need to get all the supporting internal mods as well for both kits. Also, I think I saw NEO kits being sold in silver at Webike Japan.

So for you, my best choice is the Neo for a install and forgive, right?

You talk about "You'll also need to get all the supporting internal mods as well for both kits" can you elaborate witch ones? are the needed?

Thanks in advance

 

[Dariusz]

Control your crank case pressure-oil catch can setup and you will reduce heat, combined with a 5 row external oil cooler and proper oil changes and you should be good to go.

I read more and more about the crank case oil catch, but no dealer talk about as a option to any kit (in a direct selection), for me a external oil cooler is out of the game as my goal is as most original look, but can you talk me more about the oil catch and the theory behind it?

Thanks in advance

 

[Djezspin]

I read more and more about the crank case oil catch, but no dealer talk about as a option to any kit (in a direct selection), for me a external oil cooler is out of the game as my goal is as most original look, but can you talk me more about the oil catch and the theory behind it?

Thanks in advance

HD oil pump, cam chain tensioner.

recommend 4th bearing support as well.

As for catch can, if you go 181cc then you should get one. I'm sure others with the 170cc are going to recommend it as well, but I have no experience with anything below 181 other than stock piston. For a Grom the catch can is hidden, I don't know how the setup would look on the Monkey.

All the brands I use are in the sig below.

 

[CiscoSanJose]

I read more and more about the crank case oil catch, but no dealer talk about as a option to any kit (in a direct selection), for me a external oil cooler is out of the game as my goal is as most original look, but can you talk me more about the oil catch and the theory behind it?

Thanks in advance

In order not to repeat myself or others that have done their homework. Look up all my old post from 2014 till now and you will see the various stages of engine build I have done form 170-2v to 183-2v than moving up to the 181-4v engines.

The greatest problem with all my build was controlling the internal crank case pressure and heat and talking to old time hot rodders may it be Harley bikes, full out race cars etc the main topic besides BBK kit porting was controlling the internal heat.

Most places that sell performance parts will not talk about or are not informed about crank case pressure causing HP loss and such, most sellers just sell products that everyone else is selling. Top builders such as GromFatherZ "Kenny", Franco from Finbro North America, Bryon from REM design understand the problem with internal engine pressure which robs the engine of HP.

Please check the old posting and read up, you will learn the development of getting every power out of the tiny engine while trying to reduce heat. Buying stuff others have bought and reading or seeing posting on the internet will not make your engine run great. Like I tell people LEARN or BURN.

If you want a all out good reliable grom keep it stock, change oil regularly, or go up to a super 125cc head and other go fast parts or do a 300cc transplant with water cooled engine, 6 sp transmission. Staying stock grom engine, the 4v engines are king.

here is a example of a well tuned built Takegawa 181-4v engine using carb instead of F/I killing the other bigger bikes including a honda 300cc and a bigger DRZ 400

Aloha and ride safe.

 

[solidjohnny]

Hi, thank for your comments, but not sure if I understand well, You say that "all three of us are satisfied with the power, but wish we went with a 4valve kit" why if the power is nice and reliable, and more if you say that the Neo runs cool? And after that you say to go with the Koso 170 4V, can you elaborate a little, this intrigue myself

Thanks in advance

The power from the 2V is good enough since we already spent the money on it. We wish there was still more power. If we could restart from the beginning, we would go straight for the 4valve kit because it has more power potential.

Altogether, I spent more money trying to max out my 183cc bbk with 2V Finbro 31/26 head (ported, soon to be dual valve spring), when I could've just bought a KOSO 4V 170 or even a Takegawa 181 4V kit for less money and ended up with more power. But this is what happens when you build in stages. Sometimes you go down the wrong path and you dig a money-pit hole too deep. LOL.

Luckily, the power I have now is enough....but....I want more.... Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm just riding it for now till I save money for the next stage (next stage is a 4 valve bbk kit). I do have a perfecting fine ZX-6R that just collects dust in my garage. I dunno what's wrong with me....

 

[Dariusz]

Luckily, the power I have now is enough....but....I want more.... Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm just riding it for now till I save money for the next stage (next stage is a 4 valve bbk kit). I do have a perfecting fine ZX-6R that just collects dust in my garage. I dunno what's wrong with me....

Thanks for the answer, and yes, I know that sensation Ha Ha Ha, is addictive

 

[Honda monkey]

If you port your heads on any grom engine build and port match your intake and exhaust I/D and have the right throttle body,inlet tube and F/I and ECU with the proper mapping you will be riding all day smiling.

Control your crank case pressure-oil catch can setup and you will reduce heat, combined with a 5 row external oil cooler and proper oil changes and you should be good to go.

Yes big difference between a 2v vers a 4v head.

If you have a old tired engine with 7-10K WOT miles on the engine do yourself a favor and replace all the transmission bearings, they are cheap and will make your transmission happy again. Would I go 5 speed yes. I have Zero issues with my Takegawa 5 speed and I even did not have to buy a speed healer or special adaptor for my speedo everything worked plug and play.

Just monitor your temps on your head, cylinder and oil and you would be ok. I found on my Takegawa 181-4v build the average temps on the head are between 190-220F, the cylinder between 190-240F, and oil between 160-210F going between 35mph to 55mph, anything over that and you are seeing 240F on the cylinder, 220F on the head and 220F on the oil and rise as you go up in mph like say up to 80mph for long distance.

View attachment 80322

Awesome info, how and where exactly do the temp gauge leads attach to the motor? What would you do differently, if anything? I NEED that setup. I like the NASA look, functional techno-bling is my term. Thanks again for your years of R n D.

 

[solidjohnny]

Awesome info, how and where exactly do the temp gauge leads attach to the motor? What would you do differently, if anything? I NEED that setup. I like the NASA look, functional techno-bling is my term. Thanks again for your years of R n D.

I have a TTO head temp gauge which reads from the base of the spark plug. I also read the oil temp off the aRacer display. Before I had the aRacer ecu, I was using the OPMID oil temp gauge which reads off the stock oil temp sensor. The TTO head temp gauge ($45-55) is for sure the most important thing to have. From all the sources I've found on air-cooled engines, you don't want to see temps go over 375F. Cisco is running the OPMID oil temp gauge and AFR gauge on a fancy mount. Plus his fancy temp gauge, not sure where he is pulling head temps from.

 

[CiscoSanJose]

I have a TTO head temp gauge which reads from the base of the spark plug. I also read the oil temp off the aRacer display. Before I had the aRacer ecu, I was using the OPMID oil temp gauge which reads off the stock oil temp sensor. The TTO head temp gauge ($45-55) is for sure the most important thing to have. From all the sources I've found on air-cooled engines, you don't want to see temps go over 375F. Cisco is running the OPMID oil temp gauge and AFR gauge on a fancy mount. Plus his fancy temp gauge, not sure where he is pulling head temps from.

I use this cheap and it works. I mount it on a smartphone bike/MC holder using double back tape and I spray hair spray over the edge of the face to make it water proof to keep water out. Only thing missing is a led light for checking the meter reading at night and I might DIY the case to have some kind of night vision reading. One of the leads go to the head and the other one goes to the cylinder and using the mounting bolts on the head and cylinder as the connection point for the meter.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Digital-Dual-Two-Channel-Thermometer-2-K-Type-Thermocouple-Sensor-GM1312/232634486542?epid=2222738148&hash=item362a188f0e:g:9HwAAOSwKUhZrRLB

 

[Honda monkey]

Awesome info, how and where exactly do the temp gauge leads attach to the motor? What would you do differently, if anything? I NEED that setup. I like the NASA look, functional techno-bling is my term. Thanks again for your years of R n D.

I have a TTO head temp gauge which reads from the base of the spark plug. I also read the oil temp off the aRacer display. Before I had the aRacer ecu, I was using the OPMID oil temp gauge which reads off the stock oil temp sensor. The TTO head temp gauge ($45-55) is for sure the most important thing to have. From all the sources I've found on air-cooled engines, you don't want to see temps go over 375F. Cisco is running the OPMID oil temp gauge and AFR gauge on a fancy mount. Plus his fancy temp gauge, not sure where he is pulling head temps from.

Thanks. I will order the tto temp gauge. Head temp below 375, got it!