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Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside

This is a discussion on Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside within the Grom Performance forums, part of the Honda Grom Garage category; Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM This ...

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Thread: Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside

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    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose View Post
    Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM

    This tuning platform is just his preference. He could achieve identical results on the PV3 (*potentially* better results even, given how in-depth the OEM Honda ECU can get if you really want to (end-of-injection timing, etc.)). GF has already heavily invested in learning aRacer as a platform - why would he relearn a new platform for identical results? This would be like going to someone that charges $900/hr. to tune MoTeC and asking them to write a GEMS tune. If you pay for the extra time they'll need to learn the platform, then *maybe* you'll convince them to write a rudimentary base map for you.

    Until the PV3 was released, the aRacer was, hands-down, my top pick for tuning my Grom given my experience on other platforms. This was because there was a huge void between piggyback units and a full standalone until the PV3 came along.

    The PCV and the PV3 are entirely different animals. You are comparing late-80's through early-90's tech to OBD reflash tuning that primarily began with GM vehicles in the late-90's.

    1. The PCV is a piggyback limited by fooling the stock ECU and modifying I/O. This is seriously old tech., and on some similar piggyback modules you can even find trim-pots for low/mid/high RPM fueling adjustments. This was extremely common in the early-90's as it was an easy transition for people coming from carb. jetting.

    2. The PV3 is an OEM reflash limited by the capabilities and I/O count of the stock ECU. This has the ability to be reverse-engineered into a full motorsport quality reflash by hacking the firmware, but I can tell you right now that, given the development time required, this will likely never, ever happen. It has the benefit of taking the EXTREMELY powerful OEM ECU (required to be, for emissions, economy, etc.) and repurposing it for your performance needs. The quality of the OEM ECU is almost ALL cases is tough to beat, even compared to standalone solutions.

    3. The aRacer is a tiered approach to a standalone ECU that targets hobbyist to full motorsport use. It adds motorsport features, better logging capabilities, and a more 'open' tuning platform. As discussed prior, how many of the motorsport features are you planning to use? The ability to tune via a cell phone is a gimmick to a tuner - dyno or not, a cheap laptop is the way to go as you need to have the ability to review the data logs effectively.

    Someone asked for some reading material:

    How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems (Motorbooks Workshop) by Hartman

    Buy it and read it twice. Consider it babby's first intro to tuning. Whenever they reference the GM-reflash style tuning, consider that equivalent to the PV3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubSolo View Post
    I have full DHM set up, he is familiar with Pv3 and of course his own Flashing capability.

    Ive asked David why doesnt he offer a tune for his setups flashed to stock Ecu, he said that very thing stock Ecu is not fast enough and limited to keep up with these type of mod setups,,, He himself prefers Aracer

    No un-intended effects from Ecu for fueling or timing but its also not perfect, I honestly feel like my setup has more to give than the ECU will allow, unless I bite the bullet and take to dyno...
    DHM does offer flashed ECUs for other setups though...


    Quote Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
    What is it that you would like to know about PV3? It has a few bugs I've noticed, but as far as fuel and spark tuning of a single-cylinder air-cooled scooter motor, it does just fine. I'll simplify it even more:

    If you want excellent closed-loop fueling, buy the PV3.
    If you want knock control (of unknown quality), buy the aRacer.

    The closed-loop fueling (if even offered) on motorsport-oriented systems will not offer the fuel economy you will see on OEM based units. It will usually offer the ability to target a non-stoich. AFR with a wideband, however.

    The trouble with PV3 software is that some of the commonly-used buttons have been obscured by placing them in a very hard-to-notice location in the UI.
    The only major bug I've noticed with PV3 on the Grom is that disabling decel. fuel cut doesn't really work reliably. Dynojet's firmware engineers have only cracked part of the OEM code needed to disable this feature. I have informed them of this.

    Also, they (Dynojet) have been extremely good about getting back to me with any questions I have, though sometimes it takes a few days. They certainly tailor WHO they connect you with to your level of experience. I cited years of MoTeC, etc. tuning in my initial e-mail and they got me right to the engineers.

    I'm not arguing semantics. I'm not arguing, period... I'm just passing along my experience. Worth what you paid for it.

    My point is not that auto-tune doesn't work... it's that auto-tune doesn't do much and is over-relied upon by end-users. It's a time-saver that can get you into a LOT of trouble if you don't understand what it is doing. A single outlier data-point using auto-tune (which is a glorified name for aftermarket short-term fuel trim) can blow a motor if the tuner doesn't catch it. Common or likely? No. Possible? Absolutely.

    What I am doing is comparing the real-world benefits of aRacer vs. PV3 and I'm happy to compare them in-depth if you have specific questions (i.e. is x better than y for knock sensing, etc.). I mentioned above that I cannot use the aRacer software as the manufacturer has taken the old-school method of locking their tuning software down with a license. It's too bad, really, as the GUI can really make or break one's opinion of a tuning platform.

    I am not shilling for either platform - they're both good though I can only comment on aRacer from a sky-level view at the moment.
    What I want is a manual for the software. I haven't even seen that much at this point. Do I expect the software manual to make me an expert tuner? Nope. I'm not even sure I want it to be able to teach me the basics. But it should be able to teach me about the software.


    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose View Post
    I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.
    GromFatherZ? You mean the guy with the over inflated ego that thinks his shit doesn't stink? Everything he does is surrounded by drama and most of it seems to be of his own doing. He claims to be the king of everything, but when he gets called out to race he gets silent from what I've seen on Facebook.

    Why would you come on this PV3 thread and brag about aRacer? The aRacer fanbois are as bad as Harley riders. You only know aRacer/Harley and you think that's the only real ECU/motorcycle. It's lame and for that reason alone I don't want to be associated with gayRacer. The backfire mod is just the cherry on top of that rainbow cake. Spare us the BS in this thread. There are aRacer threads if you guys want to hold hands and have a powwow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
    If you want knock control (of unknown quality), buy the aRacer.
    Would you have to add a knock sensor for this to work?

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    50-50: Thank you for making me laugh!
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    Full PV3 setup with ecu and wideband for sale
    2017 Honda Grom SF
    [ Koso 4v 181 | Koso 34mm TB | Koso Cam | Koso Cam Chain Tensioner | 10hole Injector | Aracer RC1 W/ Wideband | Dinger Intake | Brembo P32s w/ VEE Rotors | Ohlins Suspension | GromFatherz Manual Tensioner, Headstuds, Speed Spacers, Cam Cover | Carbon Fiber Everything | ]


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    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Would you have to add a knock sensor for this to work?
    Naturally.

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    https://farm66.static.flickr.com/655...d5519207_o.jpg

    OK, I found a picture of it on a water cooled cylinder. Not sure if that will come out for the grom or not. Looks like there would be some welding involved.
    Last edited by noob; 10-18-2019 at 05:09 AM.

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    I'm Matt W. in engineering at Dynojet (NOT the Matt in tech support). I did all of the work on the definition for the Grom. If anyone needs advanced guidance on tuning, OEM strategy questions or has feature requests tag me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
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    If the knock timing window and frequency filter is able to be tuned within the aRacer, you can literally attach the knock sensor into any threaded bung of the correct size and the stock motor has more than a few available.

    If the knock settings aren't adjustable (even high-end motorsport systems sometimes require trace severing/soldering on the PCB), it's a crap-shoot if the knock sensor will even work on your bike.

    To put this in perspective, when you take a stock car, put a different exhaust, pistons, valve-train, or even strip the body shell and cage the thing, knock settings WILL change due to the change in harmonics. On a vibration heavy platform like, say, any motorcycle, this is even more important.

    I'm really getting into the weeds here, but selecting knock frequency is a very involved process - you generally induce knock on the dyno via advanced timing in overrun, then log the raw audio input. You then analyze the audio with a spectrum analyzer such as Goldwave, and select the knock frequency harmonic that has the least background noise. The knock window is the period in thecombustion cycle during which knock is likelyto occur, normally between 10 and 50 degreesafter TDC. A quality knock sensor module will allow you to tune this window to ignore all audio input outside of knock-likely time windows. Both of these require relatively high-speed electronics and quality filtering/amplification. Good knock modules are often fairly high-priced, in turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJMatt View Post
    I'm Matt W. in engineering at Dynojet (NOT the Matt in tech support). I did all of the work on the definition for the Grom. If anyone needs advanced guidance on tuning, OEM strategy questions or has feature requests tag me and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
    Hey Matt, this is Steve H. - we've talked via e-mail before. Just wondering if you'd had any development time relating to my reported issue that the decel fuel cut master switch is unreliable? When disabled, it sometimes fuels on overrun, but more often, it just functions as normal with the cut. I submitted a few logs and my tune file for review a while back.
    Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 10-18-2019 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
    Hey Matt, this is Steve H. - we've talked via e-mail before. Just wondering if you'd had any development time relating to my reported issue that the decel fuel cut master switch is unreliable? When disabled, it sometimes fuels on overrun, but more often, it just functions as normal with the cut. I submitted a few logs and my tune file for review a while back.
    Steve,

    What year is your bike? I don't recall speaking with you, likely it is the other Matt.

    -Matt

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