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Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside

This is a discussion on Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside within the Grom Performance forums, part of the Honda Grom Garage category; Originally Posted by 50-50 Well people want something that works. Coming from the perspective of a tuner with real-world experience in motorsport tuning, PV3 works, ...

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Thread: Dynojet PV3 and Power Core - Juicy Detail and Help Inside

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    Well people want something that works.
    Coming from the perspective of a tuner with real-world experience in motorsport tuning, PV3 works, and quite well. The biggest competitor at the time is a promising standalone, which is (or rather, may be) a step-up from a standpoint of tuning capabilities, but may or may not be legal under different motorsport rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    And they want to be able to use it without having to know how to use proprietary software and scripts.
    'They' is subjective. No two people want the same thing. A professional tuner would likely jump at the ability to use scripting as it breaks away from hard-and-fast rules of what you can and cannot do with a tuning platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    That other thing auto tunes to your desired AFR rather than being so manual like the PV3.
    Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).

    Quote Originally Posted by dubSolo View Post
    Aracer comes with an ECU purposed for performance and parameter specific for said reason so it is much faster and accurate at achieving those goals.

    Dynojet and all this other shit just Flash/Piggyback a Stock ECU meant for reliability and environmental regulations.

    Which sucks cause I own all this with decent knowledge and success of how to tune with these, but still thinking Aracer...
    I would like to give Aracer a try just to give a good comparison from a tuners perspective, however Aracer decided to lock their software down, so you cannot try it out in 'offline' mode. If anyone wants to loan me a Super2 for comparison purposes given my background, I'd be happy to give you my unfiltered review of the side-by-side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyno Dan View Post
    Right on the money. There's a lot of stuff in the OEM that ultimately makes it more difficult to achieve the desired result. A replacement ECU designed to run an engine without the need to support systems needed for compliance is pretty straight forward / not a lot of "stuff" to get in your way from a tuning perspective. If you chose to work with the stock ECU, you just need to find a competent tuner familiar with the best tools for the job........or be willing to dive in an learn.
    While there is a lot of superfluous stuff in the OEM ECU, using a full standalone on a single-cylinder air-cooled bike is somewhat overkill, in my opinion. The biggest thing you'll get with a standalone (generally speaking here... NOT talking about Aracer) is motorsport-related features such as:

    -Map switching
    -Traction control
    -Logging inputs
    -Anti-wheelie
    -Anti-lag (won't work on a single cylinder)
    -Full-throttle shifting
    -Knock sensing (most OEM stuff has this... the Grom does not)

    How many of those are you gonna use on a single cylinder, air-cooled, NA Grom? BBK or not, most of those will be useless or just toys for street riding.

    So, to sum it all up, here's my thoughts on the Aracer vs. PV3 (the only two worthwhile tuning solutions for the Grom, IMHO):

    Buy the PV3 + wideband kit for a street bike or regulated race bike.

    Spend more and buy the Aracer if you want to fine tune spark timing on a dyno to get the last 0.1 hp out of your bike (given the knock sensing capabilities). The other features are just added benefits. If you have a race bike, make sure you can run a standalone before buying the Aracer.

    All that said, I do NOT know the quality of the Aracer knock sensing. This is an incredibly complex system requiring crank position sensing, knock window timing, frequency filtering, etc. and I have no clue how well it has been engineered.

    Lastly, buy a forward-facing slide carb. with as short of a runner as you can get if you just want to brag about your peak horsepower number. Fuel injection is NOT going to add much in terms of performance on such a simple motor.
    Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 10-11-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
    Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).
    That makes sense. The more free flowing your exhaust is the less accurate the AFR readings will be during deceleration and small throttle openings. Autotune sees a false lean reading and dumps a lot of fuel that's not needed. Wideband sensors can clog up with carbon over time and become less accurate. Some people remove them when they're not tuning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubSolo View Post
    Aracer comes with an ECU purposed for performance and parameter specific for said reason so it is much faster and accurate at achieving those goals.

    Dynojet and all this other shit just Flash/Piggyback a Stock ECU meant for reliability and environmental regulations.

    Which sucks cause I own all this with decsent knowledge and success of how to tune with these, but still thinking Aracer...
    aRacer is just so damn expensive. But it's getting tempting because almost nobody can answer questions about the PV3 and that includes the Dynojet staff. It is getting better, but Dynojet for sure released the PV3 well before their staff was equipped to support it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dyno Dan View Post
    Right on the money. There's a lot of stuff in the OEM that ultimately makes it more difficult to achieve the desired result. A replacement ECU designed to run an engine without the need to support systems needed for compliance is pretty straight forward / not a lot of "stuff" to get in your way from a tuning perspective. If you chose to work with the stock ECU, you just need to find a competent tuner familiar with the best tools for the job........or be willing to dive in an learn.
    I'm willing and more than capable of learning. I've asked Dyonjet directly where to start learning their Power Core Software Suite and nobody has an answer. I can't even get responses from Dynojet customer service half of the time.

    As far as generic FI tuning, do you have a book to recommend that would apply to the PV3 and the Power Core Software Suite?

    Oh and most of the vendors that sell PV3 can't even support it. They seem to know nothing about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
    Coming from the perspective of a tuner with real-world experience in motorsport tuning, PV3 works, and quite well. The biggest competitor at the time is a promising standalone, which is (or rather, may be) a step-up from a standpoint of tuning capabilities, but may or may not be legal under different motorsport rules.

    'They' is subjective. No two people want the same thing. A professional tuner would likely jump at the ability to use scripting as it breaks away from hard-and-fast rules of what you can and cannot do with a tuning platform.

    Auto-tune is generally something frowned upon by professional tuners as it can really get you into trouble. There is no such thing as a true auto-tune without some type of feedback loop (human, dyno, or a combination of them and others).
    I don't care about rules because I don't race.

    You're arguing semantics.

    I'm not a professional tuner. I'd be happy with autotune. If it didn't work would Dynojet offer it on their other products?
    Last edited by 50-50; 10-15-2019 at 08:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    aRacer is just so damn expensive. But it's getting tempting because almost nobody can answer questions about the PV3 and that includes the Dynojet staff. It is getting better, but Dynojet for sure released the PV3 well before their staff was equipped to support it.
    What is it that you would like to know about PV3? It has a few bugs I've noticed, but as far as fuel and spark tuning of a single-cylinder air-cooled scooter motor, it does just fine. I'll simplify it even more:

    If you want excellent closed-loop fueling, buy the PV3.
    If you want knock control (of unknown quality), buy the aRacer.

    The closed-loop fueling (if even offered) on motorsport-oriented systems will not offer the fuel economy you will see on OEM based units. It will usually offer the ability to target a non-stoich. AFR with a wideband, however.


    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    I'm willing and more than capable of learning. I've asked Dyonjet directly where to start learning their Power Core Software Suite and nobody has an answer. I can't even get responses from Dynojet customer service half of the time.

    As far as generic FI tuning, do you have a book to recommend that would apply to the PV3 and the Power Core Software Suite?

    Oh and most of the vendors that sell PV3 can't even support it. They seem to know nothing about it.
    The trouble with PV3 software is that some of the commonly-used buttons have been obscured by placing them in a very hard-to-notice location in the UI.
    The only major bug I've noticed with PV3 on the Grom is that disabling decel. fuel cut doesn't really work reliably. Dynojet's firmware engineers have only cracked part of the OEM code needed to disable this feature. I have informed them of this.

    Also, they (Dynojet) have been extremely good about getting back to me with any questions I have, though sometimes it takes a few days. They certainly tailor WHO they connect you with to your level of experience. I cited years of MoTeC, etc. tuning in my initial e-mail and they got me right to the engineers.


    Quote Originally Posted by 50-50 View Post
    I don't care about rules because I don't race.

    You're arguing semantics.

    I'm not a professional tuner. I'd be happy with autotune. If it didn't work would Dynojet offer it on their other products?
    I'm not arguing semantics. I'm not arguing, period... I'm just passing along my experience. Worth what you paid for it.

    My point is not that auto-tune doesn't work... it's that auto-tune doesn't do much and is over-relied upon by end-users. It's a time-saver that can get you into a LOT of trouble if you don't understand what it is doing. A single outlier data-point using auto-tune (which is a glorified name for aftermarket short-term fuel trim) can blow a motor if the tuner doesn't catch it. Common or likely? No. Possible? Absolutely.

    What I am doing is comparing the real-world benefits of aRacer vs. PV3 and I'm happy to compare them in-depth if you have specific questions (i.e. is x better than y for knock sensing, etc.). I mentioned above that I cannot use the aRacer software as the manufacturer has taken the old-school method of locking their tuning software down with a license. It's too bad, really, as the GUI can really make or break one's opinion of a tuning platform.

    I am not shilling for either platform - they're both good though I can only comment on aRacer from a sky-level view at the moment.
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    I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.


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    Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM


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    It so funny to read how aracer owners say its better than the pv3 without having tried the other fuel controller and viceversa...
    Its like kids arguing without facts and real comparisons...
    Both are good...
    In good hands both can do their job... In bad hands you can be the "piston melter" blaming everything but your hands...
    By the way... This is a pv3 post... Who wants to talk or say wonders about the aracer can post it in his dedicated posts or create new ones...
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    Last edited by obijuanito; 10-15-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by obijuanito View Post
    It so funny to read how aracer owners say its better than the pv3 without having tried the other fuel controller and viceversa...
    Its like kids arguing without facts and real comparisons...
    Both are good...
    In good hands both can do their job... In bad hands you can be the "piston melter" blaming everything but your hands...
    By the way... This is a pv3 post... Who wants to talk or say wonders about the aracer can post it in his dedicated posts or create new ones...
    Enviat des del meu LG-H870 usant Tapatalk
    I'm not saying it's better since I used PCV-WB02 and now using Aracer I can tell you right of the bat the Aracer is EZ to setup, program and such, expensive yes, EZ to use yes, on the fly adjustment yes, smart device/iphone setup yes, and the list goes on.

    Shit happens with what ever hardware you use, HEAT and friction is your enemy, including with that is Lack of oil, right petrol to use, correct hardware to use and correct ECU to program.

    I've owned my groms since Jan 2014 and June 2014 and part of the original BBK kit builders so in life you test, sometimes you fail, and sometimes you find something that works for the grom.

    Life goes on, just ride safe even in France or any of those European countries but ride it like you stole it.
    Last edited by CiscoSanJose; 10-15-2019 at 03:27 PM.

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    Ever tried pv3? Ever used power core software? C3 or anything related to pv3???
    If not, how can you compare them?
    If you are happy with aracer... Good for you.
    But post it in aracer postd and leave this post for pv3 technical stuff!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose View Post
    I'm not saying it's better since I used PCV-WB02 Life goes on, just ride safe even in France or any of those European countries but ride it like you stole it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose View Post
    Even his GromFatherZ 125cc engine with his special detail to porting and some other trick stuff are using Aracer ECM
    Quote Originally Posted by CiscoSanJose View Post
    I don't think you need to compare except the pricing, seems to me all the fast groms in Northern Calif Bay area are runing the Aracer ECU, ask GromFatherZ what ECU he uses and I'm sure it will be the Aracer RC-2 and most of his groms builds are running in the 80-110mph with his ported head, special hardware for Crank Case pressure and such, speed spacers, HD crank case rods and the list goes on.
    Like a veteran of the Game, keeping that post count up Lmao!...
    50-50 likes this.

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